Give-and-take

[J.B.]

I know this forum is saturated with new guys wanting to know what holster they should buy, but I'd like to request some more comprehensive feedback. There are different levels of concealment. For instance, a belly band type holster worn low around the hips so that the pistol is completely below the belt line offers little too no "print", whereas an outside-the-waist line holster is far more conspicuous and requires extra clothing to be hidden. The trade off for better concealment seems to be draw time-obviously the outside the waist line holster used in the earlier example offers faster access to the weapon than the belly band approach...Hence the title give and take of this post. I would like to retain as much access as possible, as fast as possible. Way I see it, the CCW holder's job is a reactive job-you have to react to the violent actions of an aggressor. When guns get involved in such a situation, by the time you realize you need your gun, then you need it to already be in your hand-so the shortest amount of time between needing and having bears huge importance.

On the other hand, the law says I have to keep my weapon concealed during day to day carry. That said, and I would like to hear any opinions and/or expertise on this subject, where does the line get drawn legally on printing? If I am printing, am I in violation, or does my weapon have to be blatantly exposed? I understand that all it takes is for enough suspicion for the police to be called, but I am wondering about the true legality of the issue...is it illegal to print? Understand, I don't want to walk around scaring the population-but I will sacrifice a little print (and I do mean a little-not a full on profile of a pistol)to get faster draw if I can do so.

I am the type of guy who wears a tee-shirt and jeans or shorts when I am not working. I don't do vests, nor do I wear a tee shirt with a button down over it un tucked and un buttoned. I also carry a Glock 19...say what you will about a 9mm-I've used them before and they do work...seen it with my own eyes. SO I need a holster that will house a mid-sized gun while wearing the average Texan " wear as little as possible because it's 110 degrees in the Summer" attire, keep it as concealed as possible, but not sacrifice draw speed to covertness...anybody have any good suggestions?

[Jaguar]

I have never used a belly band, thunderwear, or that type of holster so I cannot speak to that. I do have a G19 that I can conceal in a Crossbreed super tuck IWB, but it is fairly large for just a tee shirt to cover and I don't feel comfortable doing so. The G19 has a large double stack grip, and it is difficult for me to conceal "properly". I have done it, but again, I just don't feel comfortable doing so. Now that winter is coming on I may carry the Glock more often.

When I do the jeans and tee shirt mode, I carry my Kahr K9 (single stack) in a CBST style (Theis Holster) and it works just fine. I have carried this gun in both jeans and shorts - with just a tee shirt no problem. The trick is to have 1) a good gun belt and 2) a long tee shirt. I'm tall, 6'3", and have to get tall size shirts to make sure the gun stays covered. A good gun belt is nothing to skimp on and unless you try it you don't know what you're missing. I went a while with a department store belt that I thought was stiff, but it wasn't when compared to a real gun belt, so don't discount that factor.

For me, a thin single stack pistol disappears with a good IWB holster and long enough tee shirt. Today I went to the Crazy Water Festival in Mineral Wells, thousands of people milling about and no one noticed, and all I had was jeans and tee shirt. I also wear polo shirts often, and with a tucked in white tee shirt to separate the grip from my skin, it is the most comfortable carry style I have found (but looks dorky on a motorcycle.)

If you look around here long enough, you will see people saying, "people just don't notice." It is absolutely true, people just don't notice. I don't even look for it anymore, I figure if I see someone failing to conceal I'd say something, otherwise it is not my business what someone else carries on their hip.

[Heartland Patriot]

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

I do not mean this in a smart-alec manner, so please do not take it that way. I, too, used to worry about "printing". But there is NOTHING in the Texas Penal Code that uses the word "printing" in relation to concealed carry. The above reference is what is most important, specifically what I bolded and underlined. I was told several times on here: CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED. Cover it up, and don't worry about it. Obviously, there is more than that to the whole thing, but that is the underlying principal and the most important thing to remember. It is highly doubtful that you will ever have an issue because you had some nondescript bulge on or near your waist. I know you were looking for more specific info, and JAGUAR certainly gave that; I'm sure others will add more. Good luck and try not to worry so much, though it is hard not to when you first start carrying.

[MoJoeWrkn]

I know this forum is saturated with new guys wanting to know what holster they should buy, but I'd like to request some more comprehensive feedback. There are different levels of concealment. For instance, a belly band type holster worn low around the hips so that the pistol is completely below the belt line offers little too no "print", whereas an outside-the-waist line holster is far more conspicuous and requires extra clothing to be hidden. The trade off for better concealment seems to be draw time-obviously the outside the waist line holster used in the earlier example offers faster access to the weapon than the belly band approach...Hence the title give and take of this post. I would like to retain as much access as possible, as fast as possible. Way I see it, the CCW holder's job is a reactive job-you have to react to the violent actions of an aggressor. When guns get involved in such a situation, by the time you realize you need your gun, then you need it to already be in your hand-so the shortest amount of time between needing and having bears huge importance.

On the other hand, the law says I have to keep my weapon concealed during day to day carry. That said, and I would like to hear any opinions and/or expertise on this subject, where does the line get drawn legally on printing? If I am printing, am I in violation, or does my weapon have to be blatantly exposed? I understand that all it takes is for enough suspicion for the police to be called, but I am wondering about the true legality of the issue...is it illegal to print? Understand, I don't want to walk around scaring the population-but I will sacrifice a little print (and I do mean a little-not a full on profile of a pistol)to get faster draw if I can do so.

I am the type of guy who wears a tee-shirt and jeans or shorts when I am not working. I don't do vests, nor do I wear a tee shirt with a button down over it un tucked and un buttoned. I also carry a Glock 19...say what you will about a 9mm-I've used them before and they do work...seen it with my own eyes. SO I need a holster that will house a mid-sized gun while wearing the average Texan " wear as little as possible because it's 110 degrees in the Summer" attire, keep it as concealed as possible, but not sacrifice draw speed to covertness...anybody have any good suggestions?

Well I have a suggestion....but I may be biased ;)

I wear the snap-on OWB that I make(hint) and carry my M&P full size all the time wearing shorts and a slightly loose T-shirt and it works great. You can see a small bump but it could easily be a cell phone.

[Jumping Frog]

You mention draw time. That is why I always wear a gun on my hip at about 3:30. For 99% of the time, I wear IWB. That way, I am consistently drawing in the same manner with the same drawstroke.

I also practice my draw from concealment, both dry fire drills and when I shoot IDPA.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Welcome to the Forum.

As Heartland Patriot noted, the Penal Code does not use the term "printing," so it's not defined in the Code. It's a slang term that goes back many decades and it is probably one of the most misunderstood terms related to carrying a handgun. Some with an agenda argue that even the slightest bulge constitutes "printing," but this is not true. "Printing" actually means one's shirt, pants pocket, etc. is so thin and tight that the outline of a gun is clearly visible. It doesn't mean others may or will suspect you have a gun; it must be absolutely certain to constitute "printing." Since the term "printing' isn't used in the Code, it's definition is only important because so many people correctly state that "printing" would constitute a violation of TPC §46.035(a), but they incorrectly define the term or do not define it at all.

Most folks worry that any bulge will violate TPC §46.035(a) and that simply is incorrect. That said, we should all try to minimize bulges created by our handguns, but that's not a matter of being legal, but being responsible. Remember also that there is a reason TPC §46.035(a) requires the very high standard of "intentional" conduct, rather than allowing any of of the traditional ("intentional, knowing, or reckless") mental states (mens rea ) to support a conviction, as is found in virtually every other penal statute.

Chas.

[The Annoyed Man]

J.B., welcome to the forum.

You've asked a question that covers a lot of ground.

1. As others have pointed out, there is no law in Texas against "printing." There IS a law against "intentional failure to conceal." What we call "Printing," for the most part, does not rise to the level of "failure to conceal." Basically, if someone can read the rollmarks on your gun's slide through your tight-fitting shirt, that might be construed as intentional failure to conceal, but for the rest of it, really, don't worry about it too much. Even if your were to actually expose your gun accidentally, in the eyes of the law, that is still not "intentional failure to conceal." Example: you're concealing while wearing a sport coat over an OWB holster, and while crossing the parking lot, the wind blows your sport coat open momentarily, exposing your gun. That is not intentional failure to conceal.
   
   CAVEAT: We do have a member here, "handog" I believe, who actually was arrested in exactly such a scenario. He was at a tax office or some such, and if I recall correctly, when his number was called and he stood up, his IWB carried sub-compact (a Glock if I recall correctly) at the SOB position was momentarily exposed, and the soccer mom seated behind him freaked out. But the weird part is that she didn't say anything right then. Instead, he was arrested in the parking lot next to his car, as he was about to leave. I believe that he did beat the rap, but it was very expensive, and he did spend some time in jail before he got sprung by a lawyer or somebody. It was a thoroughly bad experience, and it was a great object lesson for the rest of us. I'm posting this from my iPad, so I can't take the time to research the link to his thread at this moment, but possibly somebody will have it bookmarked and post that link here. So, the caveat is: you can't account for how some people are going to react. Some people automatically think an exposed gun means you're a criminal, and others will automatically think an exposed gun means you're a cop. The aware CHL might see your exposed gun, step up to you, and in a lowered voice say "Hey bud, you're 2nd Amendment is showing."
   
   The point is that, even if your gun is accidentally exposed, you haven't broken the law.....however, you could wind up in a situation where a ninny forces you to prove in court that you haven't broken the law. So discretion still remains the better part of valor.
2. However, as has been pointed out by others already, most people are just not that observant. They walk around in "Condition White," and they're not even paying attention to who is doing what, let alone who is wearing what, and what is that bump I see under his shirt? This is one reason why they are "walking victims, waiting for a mugging to happen." They're just not paying that much attention to their world. They're worried about their kids, their jobs, what the price at the checkout stand is going to be, worried about getting home in time for American Idol, whatever. Their minds simply are not functioning in a scanning mode, and their central processor is turned off.
3. EVEN IF someone does notice a bump under your shirt, unless your shirt is just so tight that it is unavoidably obvious that it's a gun, nobody has any way of knowing what that bump is......and "knowing" is the key word. For all they KNOW (not "suspect," that doesn't count), it could be a phone, a pager, an insulin pump, a glasses case, a calculator, a portable heart monitor, a PDA, a whatchamacallit.......it could be anything. They simply don't know for any fact what it is, and any suspicion on their part does not constitute knowledge from a legal perspective.
   
   OTH, if someone steps up to you and says in a lowered voice "I carry an XD myself. How do you like that Glock? Then you've got some decisions to make......

....which brings me to the next question....

Have you figured out yet that successful carry is all about a continuum between gun choice and clothing choice? To do this successfully, you have to be willing to make some compromises. You would be something like the 20th newcomer to the forum just since I've joined who made some statement about being unwilling to alter his or her manner of dress, and wanting to know how best to conceal a gun that may not be entirely compatible with that manner of dress. In the end, everbody winds up making some kind of compromise.....either in manner of dress to conceal their gun of choice, or in which gun to carry to make their manner of dress work for them. Being unwilling to make any kind of compromise is to relegate yourself to the land of fewer options, and one major part of being a successful CHL which doesn't always get talked about is in being a flexible thinker.

Also, you would be far from the only person who feels confined to shorts and t-shirts during Texas summers.....myself included..... but we all make it work somehow, and that somehow means being willing to think flexibly and make compromises where necessary. For me, it means owning a couple of smaller, pocketable guns for summer carry when only shorts and a t-shirt will do; and many of us on the forum do own more than one carry gun exactly for this reason....because it gives us a broader range of clothing choices. For me, part of that clothing flexibility in summber means buying some of those lightweight fishing type shirts from Columbia or other like manufacturers which can be worn untucked over a belt carried gun.

Body type is important too. My personal dimensions are somewhat (actually quite a bit) on the "prosperous" side, and I carry this way with fishing shirts during the summer quite a bit, even with a t-shirt on under the fishing shirt to keep sweat off the gun and because I don't like the feel of the gun against my skin, and I don't feel any hotter that way than any other way.

Another way to compromise is to choose clothing that is one size over what your normally would wear. If you're going to carry your G19 IWB, then you need shorts with a slightly larger waist to make it work comfortably. (And comfort, by the way, is key here. If it ain't comfortable, you're not going to wear it, and that might mean that you won't carry your gun.) And whether you carry IWB or OWB, you'll likely want to buy t-shirts that are one size larger than your normal, in order to have enough room to conceal your gun and reduce it's print.

My pocket guns are by no means "mouse guns." One is a 9mm Kahr PM9, and the other is a S&W M&P340 .357 magnum. They are both quite light, and in sufficient caliber to not leave me feeling under-armed. My belt-carried guns are most often either a Kahr CW45 (which I also sometimes pocket carry) or a Springfield XDm-45 Compact 3.8. The others, which get carried much less often, are a 5" Springfield 1911 and a full-sized M&P45. Of those four, the XDm is roughly the same size as your Glock 19, and it conceals very easily.....but I cover up with fishing shirts, not a tight-fitting t-shirt. It should be noted that I never carry IWB anymore because I have a pretty bad back, and IWB just causes me too much pain. So I carry OWB all the time for belt carry, and nobody is the wiser for it.

Another thing that should jump out at you here is that two of the semi-autos I've mentioned here are single-stack guns with a flatter, narrower profile, which makes them easier to conceal. So if you do decide to buy a secondary pistol for easier concealment, take a look at single stack 9mm/.45 ACP pistols like: Kahr CM9/PM9, Kahr CW9, Kahr PM45, Kahr CW45, Glock 36, S&W M&P Shield, Springfield XDs, Beretta Nano. Also take a look at the various lightweight alloy "J-frame" sized revolvers from various manufacturers in .38 Special +P or .357 magnum (remember that a .357 can chamber and shoot .38 Special +P if you think that .357 magnum is "too much").

The bottom line is this: if you're not willing to make some compromises, you will limit your choices. There's no "right or wrong" here....just facts. If you're willing to live with limitations on what you can successfuly carry, then dress however you like. If you're not willing to live with any limitations on what you can carry, then be willing to make compromises in your clothing choices.........

.....and I didn't much get into carry method, which opens up a whole other can of worms. Welcome to the world of a CHL.

[Songbird]

Welcome, J.B.!
+1 for the good gun belt. It makes all the difference in the world. I carry a 9mm Walther PPS (also a single stack) OWB at 3:00. I've worn it with jeans and tshirt and also dressier pants and tops and it disappears.

[The Annoyed Man]

Welcome, J.B.!
+1 for the good gun belt. It makes all the difference in the world. I carry a 9mm Walther PPS (also a single stack) OWB at 3:00. I've worn it with jeans and tshirt and also dressier pants and tops and it disappears.

Dang it! I forgot to add the PPS to my list of recommended single-stacks.

[Divided Attention]

The ONLY wardrobe changes I have made since carrying daily are a belt, (never used to wear one and now I have 3 gun belts I rotate thru) and smaller clothes (lost 30#). I thought when I first started that I would have to get a new wardrobe, but with the right holster, right placement, I just put my sidearm on and go! Even tucked shirts! Even tucked shirts at LARGE venues while showing cattle where you are way too busy with other things to concern yourself with worrying about your side arm showing.

I have had one accidental exposure since I began this journey 2 years ago, my scrub top got hooked over the butt of my .380 as I picked up some items. The bugged out eyes of the young guy in a hoody acting a little weird with his hood pulled way too far over his face told me something was amiss. I clicked to what he was staring at, pulled my shirt down and went about my business. He sat down and pushed his hoody back off his face and watched me very closely

[Songbird]

Welcome, J.B.!
+1 for the good gun belt. It makes all the difference in the world. I carry a 9mm Walther PPS (also a single stack) OWB at 3:00. I've worn it with jeans and tshirt and also dressier pants and tops and it disappears.

Dang it! I forgot to add the PPS to my list of recommended single-stacks.

that was a long list! Easy to miss one. Awesome post, by the way!

[diverge]

I am the type of guy who wears a tee-shirt and jeans or shorts when I am not working. I don't do vests, nor do I wear a tee shirt with a button down over it un tucked and un buttoned. I also carry a Glock 19...say what you will about a 9mm-I've used them before and they do work...seen it with my own eyes. SO I need a holster that will house a mid-sized gun while wearing the average Texan " wear as little as possible because it's 110 degrees in the Summer" attire, keep it as concealed as possible, but not sacrifice draw speed to covertness...anybody have any good suggestions?

I carry the same firearm and wear a T-shirt and shorts a lot. I use a Raven Concealment Phantom holster. It is very flat with the clips on the side so it conceals nice. Since it is kydex pancake holster, you don't see a bulge from the firearm as seen with other holsters. I carry 3 o'clock.

Smart carry holster is also an option that I tried and worked well but your draw time will be significantly increased.

[C-dub]

Welcome to the forum J.B.

Jumping on the bandwagon. The general public has no idea what is going on around them. Many of them wouldn't even notice your handgun if was completely exposed. An extremely small number will ever notice an unusual bulge and those that do will not think "GUN!"

You should be able to conceal a G19 with a good gun belt and an IWB holster in your current wardrobe unless you like form fitting t-shirts. If you do like form fitting t-shirts, you might have to go up a size to something looser and a little longer.

[Abraham]

As a shorts and tee shirt guy too, I tote my Glock 19 in a OWB pack: Specifically a belt carry, zippered, black leather, rectangular shaped pack - NOT a fanny pack. It does not have the typical architecture of a fanny pack at all. It looks rather like a case for binoculars. So far, in over five plus years of using this carry method, no one has ever asked me what it's for nor have I gotten any curious looks...No one seems to notice it.

Certainly, one of the criticisms of this carry method is it's a slower process in accessing one's pistol. To help speed this up, I've added a small black plastic ball (approximately 1/2 the size of a golf ball) to the zipper grip. Without having to look - simply grab the ball and unzip - it's really very easy to find the ball by hand and it makes unzipping very quick.

So no cover garment is necessary and you remain cool and unfettered.