HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#61

Post by Paragrouper »

steveincowtown wrote:
Paragrouper wrote:I'm not sure I buy into HB2756.

As things stand now, I seldom encounter a 30:06 sign when I am out and about and I believe that part of that is due in part to the "concealed" aspect of the current law. I believe it is likely that more establishments would elect to post signs and "opt-out" as current law permits, if HB 2756 is passed in its current form. I'm more inclined to believe that more thought needs to be put into how to 'effectively' implement such a law before it's put forth and this last minute bill could potentially do more harm than good.



I'm more interested in the outcome of HB681 and SB354.

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

I am not saying the bill is evil, but if TSRA/NRA/etc. (good men) do nothing on OC, someone will. We are seeing this play out right now. I am 100% for Constituional Carry, but it seems like absent the experts (lawyers and those who lead the charge for CC) crafting a bill that makes sense, bills that endanger our CHL rights will come up. Exhibit A= HB2756

The best defense is a good offense.

(One cliché free with the purchase of greater or equal cliché. Today only)
I'm with you and, given this late date in the legislative session, I'm inclined to believe we would be better off addressing this after we have the right bill to pursue.

P.S. Thanks for the cliche's, I was fresh out.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#62

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

What I am about to post is probably a waste of time since the vast majority of folks on TexasCHLforum already know this and the open-carry folks in the bomb-throwing category aren't going to believe it anyway. (They need an excuse for their own failure.) But here it is anyway.

First, as to HB2756:
  • Neither NRA, TSRA, nor I had anything to do with writing or amending HB2756;
    Rep. Lavender provided a copy of the Bill to Alice shortly before filing and she sent it to me;
    The only input from "us" was that the Bill was very long and opened up numerous critical sections of the Gov't Code and Penal Code to anti-gun amendments;
    Neither the NRA, TSRA, nor I have done one single thing to oppose the Bill, either formally or informally;
    Anyone who says any of the above statements are untrue is lying.
jescd1 has clearly implied that NRA or TSRA or a combination of us have somehow been involved in transforming the original so-called constitutional carry bill drafted by an as yet unidentified person (MR Redneck claims to have drafted the bill.) into the current HB2756. He goes on to say the original bill was amended to make it easier to oppose. That too is false.

To even make such an absurd statement shows that 1) Rep. Lavender never told him that; and 2) he doesn't know how the legislative process works. When someone or some organization drafts a bill and gives it to a prospective sponsor, the Senator or Representative almost always gives the bill to attorneys working for the State Legislature to rewrite. These people are called Legislative Counsel. When they are finished, the bill is given back to the author and he can request changes. Many, though not all, of our bills go through the same process. The implication that Rep. Lavender would take a constituent's bill and give it to someone other than Leg. Counsel for final drafting is ridiculous.

Last session, the battle cry of the bomb-throwers was that the NRA and TSRA killed open-carry behind the scenes and prevented Rep. Riddle from filing an open-carry bill. That was a lie. She never said she'd file a bill, she only said she would "pull a draft" meaning Leg. Counsel would draft a proposed bill. This year, they need a new excuse so apparently the new diversion is that HB2756 was really written by "us." What a load of garbage. I'm more than a little tired of the NRA and TSRA being used as a scapegoat for incompetence and inexperience.

As a practical matter, having NRA or TSRA promote open-carry would certainly increase the chances of it passing. It certainly would be far better for CHL's if we handle it since we could make sure that TPC §30.06 remains unchanged, or the bill will be killed. In my view, changing TPC §30.06 to cover open-carry is a deal-breaker. By the time the 2013 legislative session begins, we will have around 650,000 CHL's if the current growth rate continues. I will never put them at risk for a handful of people who will actually carry openly.

So the question becomes, "when will NRA or TSRA take on open-carry?" As I have explained in numerous posts, we work on a two year cycle. When a session ends, we begin work on the next session. Sometimes we begin work on the next session before the current session ends! I've also explained that having more than one or two "flagship bills" that are high profile and emotionally charged is a mistake. There simply aren't enough hours in the day for us or elected officials to do everything necessary to pass such bills. Few people know the amount of work/hours that goes into passing any bill, much less a bill that generates a lot of emotional and irrational opposition. Even fewer people know that the sponsors of such bills have to work just as hard, if they truly want to bill to pass. It's easy to file a bill for someone or some organization, then do absolutely nothing to get it passed. We have passed a lot of high profile, emotionally charged bills in recent sessions and parking lot and campus-carry certainly fall into that category. If parking lots passes and campus-carry doesn't (no, I'm not saying it won't, I'm giving an example), then we're down to one high-profile bill for 2013 giving us room for one more. There are several other things we want to do that won't draw the media coverage we see for these two bills, so those can be filed along with one or two "flagship" bills.

The Texas Firearms Coalition educational series will include speaking engagements and materials designed to educate people on the great track record established by CHL's and how this experience points to very successful open-carry in Texas. This will lay the ground work for passage of open-carry and it will go a long way to help prevent or at least minimize a backlash against citizens carrying defensive handguns, whether openly or concealed. I want to point out that promoting open-carry will not be a high priority activity with TFC; our mission and strategic plan is far broader.

Does all this mean that NRA or TSRA will promote open-carry in 2013? No, it doesn't, but I can say that it will be considered. Nothing has changed in terms of demand from members to actively support open-carry; very few have contacted us to support it. However, as Steveincowtown said, it appears that others are going to push the issue, so perhaps we will have to take on the project. It appears that some people want open-carry badly enough to bring bills that can harm the gun rights of hundreds of thousands of Texas CHL's, not counting visitors to our State, so that fact has to be considered when setting our legislative agenda.

So when the bomb-throwers start spouting off about horses' mouths and make blatantly false insinuations (all anonymously I might add), please consider the source and years of failures from their camp. The NRA and TSRA have a great record of success and it's because we know how and when to present issues to the legislature. Patience is rarely fun or exciting, but it's often crucial to seeing a Governor sign your bill into law.

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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#63

Post by G.A. Heath »

I'm not too sure why they are attacking anyone who isn't anti-gun at this point, their bill is making progress even with the flaws it has. But, like last session, the personal attacks have begun as have the attacks on the NRA and TSRA. The falsehoods and accusations have started leading me to wonder if there is a way to drop coyote bait for them to prevent the further spread of rabies.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#64

Post by Beiruty »

why they calll it constitutional carry, HB 2756 is I understand it, allows only CHLers to oprn carry. Am I wrong? It is not a full-open carry with NO CHL.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

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Post by G.A. Heath »

Jescd1 claimed earlier in this thread that the bill was originally a constitutional carry carry bill but that the evil TSRA/NRA/<insert latest target here> rewrote it between the bill to kill it. Rep. Lavender filed the bill as it currently sits, the bill has not been edited by anyone other than the author(s) with LSCDL/OCDO and possibly Rep. Lavender and his staff. The TSRA and NRA are watching this bill because it can become dangerous if amended by anti-gun forces, however as the bill sits right now the NRA and the TSRA appear to be remaining neutral on it. My understanding is that they are not supporting it nor are they opposed to it, as it currently sits.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#66

Post by 74novaman »

A few things:

I am impressed with the work done on OC this year regarding politely contacting congress people, getting someone to submit the bill, and getting it passed out of committee.

That said, it seems some people have defaulted once again to blaming others if something goes wrong to the point of making things up, and it makes me really hesitant to work with such obvious liars.

For those who truly believe that NRA or TSRA "sabotaged HB 2756...why would Lavender accept such a sabotage of a bill he submitted? He seems very on board with the concept of passing open carry in Texas...yet he accepted a revised version of the bill that makes it impossible to pass or is watered down from constitutional carry? Basically, you have to either believe that the Rep that is ON YOUR SIDE is either a fool, or deliberately okay with OC not being passed and just pandering to you. If that's your opinion of your friends, I'd hate to know what you think of your enemies. :roll:

As food for thought, SB 354 was filed on 1/13/11.
HB 2756 was filed on 3/09/11.

2 months in our incredibly short legislative cycle is nothing to sneeze at. Even if this bill had been perfectly written to everyones satisfaction, Mr. Cotton loved it and NRA backed it fully, someone simply failed to file it early enough to pass this session. Perhaps your blame should be directed at whoever took 2 extra months to get this thing on the table for discussion, and not at hypothetical boogymen who had nothing to do with the bill.

Gee, I wonder if the person who didn't get it written in time to get it passed this year is the one trying to blame others for its failure....now why would they do that? :leaving
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#67

Post by Jasonw560 »

This looks to me like a hastily put togethet thing. That's why Alice Tripp et.al. didn't get it until then.

They've had two years mas o menos to work on it, and submit it early enough for it to get passed.

Homestly, after reading some of opencarry.org bomb-thrower posts, I don't know if open carry is a good idea. I'm just sayin'.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#68

Post by 74novaman »

Jasonw560 wrote:
Homestly, after reading some of opencarry.org bomb-thrower posts, I don't know if open carry is a good idea. I'm just sayin'.
Mr.redneck advocated calling and harassing Charles at work over on ocdo. Keepin it classy!

At this point, just because of the vitriol, blame, and immaturity on the ocdo side, I'd have a hard time supporting any bill drafted or backed by those "gentlemen".
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#69

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Open carry will probably not pass in Texas, at least in the near future. With that said, I would like to see something passed such as that suggested by Florida, i.e. HB 45, which protects concealed weapons permit holders from being prosecuted if their guns are accidentally exposed. I know Texas already has something like this, but I would like to see it strengthened, where a huge burden of proof would be required by L.E. prior to arrest and seizure. My greatest fear, and much of my money on IWB holsters, are in my concerns of L.E. arresting me just due me bending over to pick something up or through a chance gust of wind. I personally don't have the money or time to be spent on proving it was an accident, while an anti-CCW L.E. officer claims are different. I do remember Harris county when CCW first began and with their problems with traveling with a firearm. With my work I have a chance to talk to L.E. officers from everywhere within Central Texas. While 99%, just a number, not verifiable, of those I speak to have no problem and in fact fully support CCW, there are some that are fully anti and have the mentality to arrest first and let the DA or courts figure it out. Not a bang against L.E. just a fact as I see it. These anti-CCW L.E. guys are usually transplants and hopefully those veterans within their Departments can assist them into the Texas state of mind. Matter of fact one L.E. gentleman, from Burnett, stated he would prone someone like me out, disarm, handcuff and transport, just by being called in by a concerned civilian. I know the DA of Burnett county, so I don't think it would go anywhere. But, again I would have to go through the process with the knowledge that anything could happen, i.e. Las Vegas, COSTCO. I am not trying to start another thread, don't personally care about the why's of what occurred at that time, just explaining my fears. Even if open carry was allowed I personally would prefer not to. Not due to worries about someone taking me out first, stealing my firearm and whatnot, but just my concerns with frightening or otherwise creating a Faux Paus with other citizens while I just want to shop, eat or otherwise go about my daily living.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

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DEB wrote:Open carry will probably not pass in Texas, at least in the near future. With that said, I would like to see something passed such as that suggested by Florida, i.e. HB 45, which protects concealed weapons permit holders from being prosecuted if their guns are accidentally exposed. I know Texas already has something like this, but I would like to see it strengthened, where a huge burden of proof would be required by L.E. prior to arrest and seizure. My greatest fear, and much of my money on IWB holsters, are in my concerns of L.E. arresting me just due me bending over to pick something up or through a chance gust of wind. I personally don't have the money or time to be spent on proving it was an accident, while an anti-CCW L.E. officer claims are different.
I went to my son-in-law's house yesterday. Worked all day in pants and t-shirt cutting down two trees. Climbed the trees a couple of times. Held ropes, carried limbs to the pile, went up and down tall ladders, etc., etc. Took several breaks where we all sat and drank cold waters . Ate supper with the five men and one young boy that were there. Talked to the neighbors and waved to them as they went by. Not one person noticed that I was carrying (IWB, 3 o'clock, P239). Unless you deliberately wear clothing that increases the chances of exposing your weapon (short or skin tight shirts or pants, etc.), I think the fear of exposure is greatly exaggerated. The chances of encountering a hostile LEO is higher, and as you pointed out, that is pretty low. As far as chance gusts of wind go, if it's windy outside, zip it, button it or keep your arm at your side to keep it from coming open.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#71

Post by texasjeep44 »

Mr. Cotton,

Thank you for your long explaination. I agree that the current bill Lavender has introduced could very well limit CHL holders rights instead of expand them.

I never heard it during Lavenders campaign, but I am told from others that this was something he promised he would do if elected. Being that he, and the people who report he campaigned on this are from my town, I have no reason to think they are telling anything but the truth.

Is he doing it because he promised it during the campaign, or is he doing it because he truely believes in open carry, I don't know.

Would it have been better for a newly elected State Rep to get support from as many pro gun camps as possible before introducing legislation? Well any answer besided yes to that question would make me question one's true goals for gun owners, especially people who make the decision to carry daily whereever it is legal.

Again, thank you for your very informative post, and this forum.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#72

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

texasjeep44 wrote:Mr. Cotton,

Thank you for your long explaination. I agree that the current bill Lavender has introduced could very well limit CHL holders rights instead of expand them.

I never heard it during Lavenders campaign, but I am told from others that this was something he promised he would do if elected. Being that he, and the people who report he campaigned on this are from my town, I have no reason to think they are telling anything but the truth.

Is he doing it because he promised it during the campaign, or is he doing it because he truely believes in open carry, I don't know.

Would it have been better for a newly elected State Rep to get support from as many pro gun camps as possible before introducing legislation? Well any answer besided yes to that question would make me question one's true goals for gun owners, especially people who make the decision to carry daily whereever it is legal.

Again, thank you for your very informative post, and this forum.
You are absolutely right. Rep. Lavender promised to file an open-carry bill and he kept his campaign promise. I admire him for his integrity in doing so. He's a freshman Representative and from what little I know about him so far, I think he's going to be a great friend to gun owners.

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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#73

Post by TexasGal »

It is sad that we are becoming divided over this, but I do see a lot more hostility from some on the OC side. If they would just have a bit more patience with the slow grind of change. Put yourself in the place of a business owner. For now, he can have people who are pro carry and people who are anti come in to do business with him without incident. With open carry, he has to consider the reaction of his customers who don't want to be around visible guns. He has to consider the possible arguments and complaints. I agree a gun buster sign could be used to show open carry is not wanted and the 30.06 could be used to forbid both. Business owners can then just use the gun buster sign to let CHLs know they need to conceal before coming in. They still get to be armed, the antis still get their peace of mind. Win Win. But the all or nothing angry attitude of "I'll wear my gun anyplace I please whatever anyone feels" serves no one and least of all the OC supporters who are more reasonable.
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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#74

Post by flintknapper »

TexasGal wrote:It is sad that we are becoming divided over this, but I do see a lot more hostility from some on the OC side. If they would just have a bit more patience with the slow grind of change. Put yourself in the place of a business owner. For now, he can have people who are pro carry and people who are anti come in to do business with him without incident. With open carry, he has to consider the reaction of his customers who don't want to be around visible guns. He has to consider the possible arguments and complaints.


This is a concern....I do not discount it, but consider it largely an issue of education.


I agree a gun buster sign could be used to show open carry is not wanted and the 30.06 could be used to forbid both.

I think a small, generic "gun busters" sign would be a grave mistake. If ANY small sign were sufficient to warn the "carrier" (concealed or open)...then it could later be argued that the LARGE 30.06 sign should be reduced in size...or eliminated. It would make good argument.

I agree with Charles...that two large signs will never pass the legislature...and IMO it should not, it would indeed constitute an unreasonable burden upon businesses. IF a two sign option is "the answer" then the current sign could be divided into two equal parts (vertically), the lettering reduced in size and still accomplish everything needed.

They still get to be armed, the antis still get their peace of mind. Win Win. But the all or nothing angry attitude of "I'll wear my gun anyplace I please whatever anyone feels" serves no one and least of all the OC supporters who are more reasonable.
Certainly...exercising discretion is best as concerns nearly everything, but we get nowhere when we fail to responsibly exercise our rights. At one time in this country, blacks were segregated from the white populace, Gays were forced to "stay in the closet" or risk persecution. Both factions fought vigorously for equality (and won). It took courage, time, perseverance and sacrifice.

Are gun owners really such Social Pariah's that we can't overcome the unfounded fears of a certain segment of the public? IF so...then I submit we have already lost our battle and might as well walk meekly to the back of the bus.

Now...I am the first to agree...there is a time, place and method to do things. But Open Carry (the issue/notion) has already arrived and will need to be addressed. IF the NRA/TSRA/Other's do not like what they have seen thus far, then they had better get started addressing the issue as they would have it done.

I am hoping to see some success this session with respect to Campus Carry and the Parking Lot bill. If these fail however, I am seriously going to have to evaluate just how much political clout the NRA/TSRA and our legislators really have. If we can't manage to accomplish even one of these heralded "baby steps", then we're crawling (not walking) anyway and need to take a serious look as to why.

So there's my rant for today. ;-)


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Re: HB 2756 Open Carry bill reported favorably

#75

Post by steveincowtown »

First, thanks to Charles for yet another well thought out/informative reply. There is so much great information for CHl'ers on ths board.

Second, Flint pretty much sumed up my post with this:
flintknapper wrote:Now...I am the first to agree...there is a time, place and method to do things. But Open Carry (the issue/notion) has already arrived and will need to be addressed. IF the NRA/TSRA/Other's do not like what they have seen thus far, then they had better get started addressing the issue as they would have it done.
If the TSRA/NRA were involved next session, I think there would be a lot better of a chance of a bill being producted that protects CHL'ers current rights while reclaiming our 2A rights in general. Don't discount the OCDO folks, their good intentioned (I hope) bill this session may not get passsed this session, but there is a 100% chance they will have a new bill in 2 years if it doesn't. Who knows what that bill will look like...
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