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I think this has gotten out of control... my point was not that a frangible round is better than a JHP. So, I'm not going to rebut that argument. I was also not saying that it was perfect in every scenario, so I'm not arguing that either. The ammo I'm talking about has a frangible CORE, not a fully frangible bullet. It's a bit like the Blazer rounds that have a mini shotshell in the middle. I also don't think that shooting through a car door or window is a good motivation for buying heavy-penetration rounds. I do have a .357sig that I carry in my truck (loaded with speer gold dots), just in case I need to do that... but if I'm not in the truck, I can't imagine needing to fire into someone else's vehicle for self-defense. None of that has anything to do with my original point anyway.

I'm not going to argue about this any more. I was simply trying to say that you can properly equip a .380 so that it is a much better SD weapon. Personally, I carry a .45 - I just don't think it's fair to argue that a .380 is never going to be effective. I was trying to spread some knowledge about a new type of ammo that is proving itself to be an excellent SD round. I don't have anything to gain from their sales, I just thought some people would like to know about it. This discussion has gone a different direction, so I'll just bow out and hope you guys who are interested do go look it up and see if it's right for you. If you're not interested... then I'm ok with that too.

maybe this will help... imagine a BB fired from a classic Red Ryder BB gun, which moves at 280 ft/sec (that's just over 190 mph). Imagine that thing hitting you and how it will feel... I think most of us have been shot by a BB gun before :). Then imagine a locomotive moving at 19 mph (10% of the speed of the BB). Which do you think will "overpenetrate"? ;) The point of that analogy is to take two extremes and compare them. The locomotive has a thousands of tons of mass, and moving slowly will still demolish any living thing in its path because of the amount of force applied. The BB leaves a nice red mark and *might* draw blood... but will rarely even penetrate the skin, again because of the force applied. These are two extremes... now imagine two things in the middle of this spectrum. a .380 round and a .45 round. The 45 moves a lot slower but has a lot more mass. The .380 has very little mass comparatively, but is moving much more quickly. That lighter weight is compensated for by the speed... resulting in similar amounts of force for each.

The similar force ratings mean that when the bullet hits the target, it will be with the same strength. The *composition* of the bullet is key here. the .45 (especially in ball ammo) is significantly more prone to overpenetration. The ball maintains its shape, and therefore maintains more of its force to the same small area. The .380 round I was talking about has a frangible lead core and a soft point behind it. these materials will fracture, mushroom, and spread out, meaning that it will imart its force to a larger area. This makes the bullet stop much more quickly. It also creates a larger wound channel and therefore does more damage. The .45 ball will tend to just push on through. The JHP .45 round that I was comparing it to will actually spread out a little, but not as much as the .380 (no frangible core) and while it's not as likely as ball to overpenetrate, it's *more* likely than the .380 round I talked about.

For reference (I did take physics in high school and college, although it's been over 10 years):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

speedsix wrote:...never took physics, but I don't believe that a bullet weighing 20% of a larger bullet even moving over twice as fast, can generate as much stopping power...and your figures back it up...the .380 yields 337 and the .45 yields 350...given the speed, the .380's likely to pass through the body unless it hits a bone big enough to stop it and leave less of its energy in the target than the slower .45, which will most likely stay in the body with a center mass hit...
...let's see what those who know 'bout those things say about it...doesn't seem logical to me...this new ammo does seem to be bodacious powerful...but not that much...

337 versus 350 is a negligible difference in force - less than 5%. And no, the higher speed does not mean it is more likely to overpenetrate. Mass resists force equally, regardless of speed, not to mention the fact that the frangible core of the .380 in question is designed specifically to prevent overpenetration. Also, a .380 round is about 67% of the size of a .45, not 20%.

my point was not that the .380 is better than the .45, my point was that most people (not all, of course) buy the generic JHP ammo and assume that because it is .45 it is far and above better than a .380. That simply isn't true. With the exact same type of ammo, the .45 will always be better. but if you want to carry a .380 and have the same stopping power as the *average* .45 round JHP... it's easy enough to do.

as a point of fact (if anyone still cares, lol), the WWB JHP 230gr .45 ammo, according to winchester.com, moves 838 ft/s and applies 350 lb/ft at 10 yds. The RBCD TFSP 45gr .380 ammo moves 1835 ft/s and applies 337 lb/ft at 10 yds. Ballistically speaking, they should impact the target with the same amount of force. The RBCD bullet style (TFSP vs. JFP) will be superior to the WWB for center-mass hits.

Just FYI :)

the info I was shown were based on having a .380 bullet with the same approximate mass as a .45 WWB JHP because of the filled-in frangible core, similar muzzle velocity because of the hotter load (albeit with a shorter tested barrel), and greater fragmentation. Shot into center mass (as we should all be aiming!), the mix of tissues and bone being impacted by the frangible core *and the mushroomed JHP portion* create a spread pattern that *should* be more effective than just a mushroomed JHP that is slightly wider. Of course, shot placement is paramount. In order for a frangible round to be as effective, it needs to hit vital organs. If you hit a femur, for example, you want more of the mass to be in the "mushroom" than in the spread.

My philosophy is that everyone should train with their chosen carry weapon, then train some more, then once that's done they should keep training. Having a mousegun that you know very well and are very comfortable shooting is far better than a big, bad, full size .45 that you just brought home from the gun show. putting the right ammo in that mousegun slides the scales even more in your direction. I don't want my wife to carry my .45 - regardless of its superior stopping power. She's not "scared" of it, but she doesn't like shooting it and she won't train with it. She does, however, enjoy shooting our 9mm and .380 guns. I want her to carry one of those. If the time ever does come for her to use it, I want her to be comfortable and confident in her ability to put a few rounds into her assailant. I also want her to carry with the best ammo possible, so that the shots she does land will be the most effective. Each of our SA handguns has a magazine dedicated to "carry ammo" and magazines that we use for target shooting.

My point is not to argue, just trying to clarify what I posted earlier. The ballistics reports on this stuff (after looking it up, I think it's RBCD not RCBO but I'll verify tonight) is quite impressive. I was happy with my WWB JHP ammo for carry... until I saw these reports. FWIW, I also had some feed issues with Remington UMC JHP 230gr in my Kimber. That's what made me go looking for an alternative... my local gunsmith turned me on to this stuff not only for its badassitude but also the fact that bullets with a "nose" have fewer feeding issues. This is the best of both worlds :)

IMO, ammo selection is just as important as caliber selection. a 9mm with some solid (expensive) self-protection rounds is far more deadly than a .45 with ball ammo or even a wal-mart hollow point. The ballistics of some ammo I just picked up (RCBO?) in .45 is insane - 2200 ft/sec muzzle velocity and 815-ish lb/ft of force applied to the target at 15 yards. And that's a 90 grain load. It's a soft hollow point with a frangible lead core that makes it feed better in an SA pistol, stop better when it hits the target, and spread out like crazy, doing a lot more internal damage. Of course, it's over $40 for a box of 20... definitely not something I can afford to practice with regularly.

That same ammo in .380 is going to hit just as hard and do just as much damage as generic WWB JHP .45, according to ballistics studies. Of course, my .45 Kimber using that ammo is still a better choice... but if I had to conceal an LCP-sized weapon and had the right ammo for it, I would not be any less confident in my "stopping power" :)