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...slow learner...

...it's nice to be remembered, but this old buffalo ain't risin' to the bait...I'm busy practicin' to be reasonable and mature like srothstein said...and maybe prudent...maybe...

...Well, OK, then...be that way...but when they have you pulled over for doing 80 and I come poking on by at 65, I'm gonna honk and wave and holler "TOLD YA"...

...give me examples of court-contested tickets where the judge agreed that it was reasonable and prudent for the person who was written up for 78 in a 65 and argued that he was just doing what everyone else was doing so that he wouldn't "impede" them...it isn't going to fly with the officer..."I'm dealing with YOU right now, not them"...and it isn't going to fly with the judge "You were doing 13 over the posted limit...you're wrong...pay the man"...reasonable and prudent deals with speeds LOWER than the posted speed...not higher...so, yes I AM ignoring the reasonable and prudent part...it wouldn't fly as an excuse for going over the posted speed...which is what "Sec. 545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful." CLEARLY says...

srothstein wrote:

speedsix wrote:

gigag04 wrote:

speedsix wrote:...I feel all better now...I was plumb upset thinking that I could be punished for doing right when everyone else was doing wrong...makes no sense at all...

No - but it is possible to get a speeding ticket dismissed under the "reasonable and prudent" element. You just have to convince the judge/jury. Now - if it is snow/sleet/slick and someone is driving the speed limit, but it is not reasonable, I could articulate a speeding ticket (or reckless driving). Just have to prove up that element. It works both ways.

...both of those possibilities at least make sense...the first 'cause any break we can get is a good one...the second one 'cause 90% of the drivers'll agree that you'd drive slower than posted in bad conditions...even if they really don't and are the ones running us off the road....
...thanks for clarifying...

So, if you accept that this term, which is not defined in the Transportation Code, can work for either side of the limit, perhaps you could explain why the second term could not work the exact same way? I do agree with what GigAg said, and the same works for the impeding law. If it is normal for people to do ten over and they would beat a speeding ticket for it, then it would be impeding to go only five over and have a stack of cars behind you.

...ain't no "perhaps" about it...you might wiggle out of a ticket where you were speeding because everyone else was, too, and the flow kinda carried you along: "Judge, there were 15 cars and I was in the middle of them...didn't realize I was doing 15 over..."...that makes some sense...
... but to be written a ticket when you weren't violating the posted speed limit makes no sense at all...you can't be guilty of breaking the law when you're keeping it...it's not illegal to stop at a stop sign...(the only way it would be is if an officer was directing traffic and trying to pull you through it...he supercedes the posted signs)...you can't be arrested for not stealing a car...it's simple to me...if five guys are speeding, that doesn't make them right and the guy doing the posted speed wrong...it's not an opinion poll...it's law...which a lot of folks seem to say doesn't mean what it clearly says...spank any child for not misbehaving like the others around him and see what happens...that way of thinking's like the guys sloughing off at work coming to the guy giving it 100% and telling him "Slow down, Joe, you're making us all look bad"....if you're going to tell drivers to get out there and do like the other guys are doing, you'll have chaos...so we have a law that sets limits...and following them, you know you're safe from punishment...impeding is a bad thing...driving the posted speed limit is a good thing...and if it impedes anyone it has to be the bad guys who are breaking the law...how simple does it get?!!!!!

"Sec. 545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful."
...this means that if you're above the posted speed limit the speed you're doing is NOT REASONABLE AND PRUDENT and it IS UNLAWFUL...unless you can show special circumstances why this doesn't apply to you...and troopers routinely tell folks on the way to the hospital to deliver a baby to go on...but DON'T SPEED...it's not reasonable to endanger lives in this case...so if you're going the posted speed, you're reasonable and prudent, you're driving lawfully with regard to speed, and you're NOT impeding anyone...it's THEIR problem, not yours...

gigag04 said: "No - but it is possible to get a speeding ticket dismissed under the "reasonable and prudent" element."
...one possible example would be if there was a government-ordered evacuation going on...another is if a tornado was chasing you down the road...the danger of letting it catch you was greater than the danger of speeding...kind of like the "law of greater good" where, in some dire circumstances, the value of breaking the law is greater than the value of keeping it...but this sure isn't one of those circumstances...
...you either accept it or you don't...I gotta go bury a horse, now, y'all have a good day...

gigag04 wrote:

speedsix wrote:...I feel all better now...I was plumb upset thinking that I could be punished for doing right when everyone else was doing wrong...makes no sense at all...

No - but it is possible to get a speeding ticket dismissed under the "reasonable and prudent" element. You just have to convince the judge/jury. Now - if it is snow/sleet/slick and someone is driving the speed limit, but it is not reasonable, I could articulate a speeding ticket (or reckless driving). Just have to prove up that element. It works both ways.

...both of those possibilities at least make sense...the first 'cause any break we can get is a good one...the second one 'cause 90% of the drivers'll agree that you'd drive slower than posted in bad conditions...even if they really don't and are the ones running us off the road....
...thanks for clarifying...

...I feel all better now...I was plumb upset thinking that I could be punished for doing right when everyone else was doing wrong...makes no sense at all...

...someone's going to have to show me in the traffic code where a trooper can write you for impeding if you're in the right lanes or lane and doing the speed limit...before I believe it...I'd have challenged that state trooper in court...made him write me a ticket, warning or not, and fought it...unless there was a sign saying trucks keep to right lane or such, his stop was bogus...
...Kalifornia...I won't even argue what happens there...but I would like to see it in traffic law ...
...srothstein, I'm going to have to see it in the law before I believe that normal or reasonable means ABOVE the posted limit ...(the only way that would be legal is if there were an officer directing traffic...he has superiority above all signs and signals.)...just because the majority of other drivers is violating the speed laws, it's ridiculous to say you can be punished for not violating it along with them...without you being in the wrong lane where it's marked for slower traffic to stay right or left for passing only...it just won't fly....

...you can only get a ticket for driving too far below the posted speed limit...there is no violation for driving 60 in a 60...not even if everyone else's doing 80...it just ain't so...impeding traffic's when you're driving 15-20 miles under the posted speed and usually then, only if you're in the left lane...

http://law.onecle.com/texas/transportat ... 63.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and "normal and reasonable" does NOT mean above the posted speed limit...
...don't know about other states but I doubt seriously you can get an "impeding" type ticket if you're doing the posted speed...it flies in the face of law...I'd like to see the statute...

dihappy wrote:

speedsix wrote:...I was always amused(not amazed) that no matter what violation I stopped a citizen for, they always had something else that they thought I should be doing...and weren't bashful about telling me so..."Why aren't you out there catching REAL criminals?" and so forth...my answer was "Because you have made it necessary for me to stop and deal with you instead because of your speeding, headlight out, or whatever the violation"...it's childish to do wrong, get caught at it, then try to pick apart the officer who stopped you...it's mature to own up , take the warning or ticket, and go on with life...
...attitudes ARE important...an officer will usually respond to one, be it good or bad...with the same...not always, but usually...we should own up to our mistakes and deal with them, instead of lyin' and denyin'...and pointing the blame elsewhere...I've been warned a lot more than written in the last 35 years...because I honestly admit my fault in a friendly, respectful manner, and ask for mercy when I 've sinned...only once did that not get me a warning...in a school zone that I hadn't realized I'd entered...and where it comes to kids, I understand the strictness...cops are people, too, and will treat us with the same respect we extend to them...with few exceptions...

"I disagree with saying cops will treat you with the same respect you show them..."

*...if you mean not all cops handle themselves well...I agree...if you mean you expect for a person to be rude and arrogant to an officer, and have his attitude still disposed towards giving him a warning, and not a ticket, and being understanding as to why he violated a traffic or other law...not many human beings will give us their best once we've shown them our worst...I'm not talking about videos, but actual life experiences on the street...give ANYONE a hard time as they try to do their job, and you'll find yourself getting smaller portions...I've stopped a belligerant, overbearing, down-your-throat attitude from a cop in mid-sentence and gotten the officer's apology after I corrected his attitude...and I had run a red light...and I didn't get a ticket...there are exceptions to all rules...but I said USUALLY an officer will be as friendly and cooperative as you are...and it's NOT unprofessional for him to become very businesslike and go strictly by the book once someone has shown him disrespect and attitude...it'll happen in a hospital, a hamburger joint, an automotive repair shop, and it will surely happen on the street...

"Cops should always remain calm and professional, there are a few videos showing cops doing just that."

.*..they can do that...and still write you a ticket...because of the way you treated them...instead of a friendly warning...

"They shouldn't lose their cool when someone asks a question, or even gets upset. If you can't deal with people, you applied to the wrong job buddy."


*...I agree...his choice of words is always his responsibility...but being friendly and understanding is not required when a "customer" is not polite and cooperative...

"How many of us would lose our jobs if we quit acting professional when dealing with a problem customer? "

*...again...rudeness and yelling is not professional...but you don't get any more than a person has to give you when you treat them rudely...cops are no different..."the breaks" and "benefit of the doubt" and "extra onions" can be freely given...or withheld...and, even though he continued "acting professional"..I've got a ticket I didn't have to have...because I treated him badly and alienated his good will!!!

"Yes, there are amazing men and women LEOs out there. But the few who somehow got hired with their attitudes and power trips make some of us leary when dealing with any Leo.

"

*...I'll bet we can agree on this...every LEO SHOULD approach us with a professional, business-like, respectful manner...how we respond to him/her will surely affect his/her decisions with respect to whether the ticket is issued or only a warning...

...for all the hundreds of times I've heard or read "why can't the police DO something about..........?", and the chagrin or anger expressed when they're told "We can't, our hands are tied by the law or the courts...we'd really like to..." or words to that effect...the "pretextual stop" or suspicion stop justified by a real violation, no matter how small ,is really fair play...
...my Mom launched deep investigations and got convictions often based on something not right about the look on my face or my taking too long to answer...
...my teachers did basically the same...as do bosses...as do wives...it's a way of life...we notice something that, to us and in our area of expertise seems out of place...we have a hunch...we justify it by what's often another reason, and we check it out...that's neither evil or unfair..........unless maybe you're the one being stopped or checked out.............if they catch the one who's just burgled your home...they were smart and efficient...if they catch a serial rapist, they're heroes...it's only if you get caught or punished that it "seems somehow wrong"....
...the "system" and courts have greatly restricted LEOs since the 60s...there was MUCH more opportunity for official oppression and unfair treatment of citizens before that...it's a trade-off...and a balancing act...legislative, executive, and judicial...if they all do their jobs well...we, the people benefit much more...

...I was always amused(not amazed) that no matter what violation I stopped a citizen for, they always had something else that they thought I should be doing...and weren't bashful about telling me so..."Why aren't you out there catching REAL criminals?" and so forth...my answer was "Because you have made it necessary for me to stop and deal with you instead because of your speeding, headlight out, or whatever the violation"...it's childish to do wrong, get caught at it, then try to pick apart the officer who stopped you...it's mature to own up , take the warning or ticket, and go on with life...
...attitudes ARE important...an officer will usually respond to one, be it good or bad...with the same...not always, but usually...we should own up to our mistakes and deal with them, instead of lyin' and denyin'...and pointing the blame elsewhere...I've been warned a lot more than written in the last 35 years...because I honestly admit my fault in a friendly, respectful manner, and ask for mercy when I 've sinned...only once did that not get me a warning...in a school zone that I hadn't realized I'd entered...and where it comes to kids, I understand the strictness...cops are people, too, and will treat us with the same respect we extend to them...with few exceptions...