TexasCHLforum.com

In light of the above, I think I am going to accelerate my plans to acquire my Tromix Saiga-12 SBS and build an AR-15 (trunk guns). I would hope it wouldn't stir too horrible of a fuss if I stroll in someplace carrying a non-descript soft-sider (bull-dog) with an SBR inside concealed.

apostate wrote:

Tristor wrote:Right, I understand the legal definitions of handgun. My concern is that the statute that allows concealed carry of a handgun, does not allow concealed carry of any firearm other than a handgun

It doesn't prohibit it either. I'm not aware of any Texas law prohibiting carrying concealed firearms, such as rifles and shotguns, in general (except for security guards on duty, and perhaps some other special cases) nor am I aware of any Texas statutes prohibiting concealing weapons such as pocket knives.

Tristor wrote:and since open carry is not legal in Texas

Open carry of handguns has some issues because of 46.035 but I'm not aware of any Texas law prohibiting openly carried weapons in general, such as rifles, shotguns, 4" hunting knives, etc.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer

Yeah, see, that's my issue as well. There's nothing specifically allowing it, or specifically disallowing it. While I'd love to be the guy that presumes the best (i.e. that it not being illegal makes it legal), unfortunately the maze of the US courts doesn't really allow that, because some obscure case law might possibly disallow this or be used to disallow this. i.e., even if it's not illegal, if you get caught you might still get arrested and screwed over by some over-zealous DA.

My interest in this is obvious though. If this /is/ legal, then obviously it's a better idea to carry a shell bag and should sling with a serbu super shorty than it is to carry a handgun, not to mention no license required (theoretically). If I had a choice in a gun-fight between a shotgun (even with only 4 rounds in the mag) and a handgun, I'd always take the shotgun.

EDIT: Even if this isn't the case, the ATF determination that the AK Draco's /are/ indeed pistols, and I believe they would also classify as pistols under Texas law would mean you could potentially conceal-carry something like an AK-Draco with a 50-round drum mag on a single-point sling under a trench coat with your CHL. That's definitely not a bad addition to a gunfight either (if you're already looking for stuff that requires a coat to cover up). It wouldn't get around the 30.06 provision though.

Specifically, what I'm referring to is as below:

Subch. H. LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN GC §411.171. DEFINITIONS. wrote: (3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which
is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.

(5) "Handgun" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.01, Penal
Code.

Texas Penal Code, TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, AND MORALS, CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS, Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS. wrote: (5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.

(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

This pretty clearly (above) establishes that the CHL only allows for the concealed carrying of a handgun, as it is a concealed handgun license, and handgun is defined as a firearm made, designed, or adapted to be fired with one-hand (which the serbu super shorty /might/ qualify for). But also that a short-barreled firearm is specifically any rifle or shotgun that does not meet federal length minimums or has a reduced overall length. Since the Serbu Super Shorty is an AOW with a barrel length of 6.5" with an overall length of 16.5" it would qualify as a Short-barreled shotgun (since it fires shotgun rounds by means of a shotgun type action) under Texas Statutes.

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. wrote: (a) A license holder commits an offense if
the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter
411, Government Code, on property of another without effective
consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed
handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was
forbidden and failed to depart.

Everyone has already seen this, but it clearly establishes, as we already know, that the 30.06 only applies to CHL holders while carrying a weapon defined as a concealed handgun above (which an AOW probably does not count as).

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. wrote: (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

This bit of legislation clearly shows that open-carry of a /handgun/ is not legal, although it doesn't mention any other types of firearms.

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. wrote: <snipping quote>

Since this is getting long, I'm just going to point out that this section reinforces the above, open-carry of a handgun is not legal in Texas either on your person or in your vehicle, and additional penalties apply to CHL holders.



Unfortunately, the above all seems to apply exclusively to handguns, not to AOWs or SBS/SBRs, even though they are defined. So I'm not really getting anywhere by reading the statutes, it appears they have nothing to say either way about the carrying of AOWs. My primary concern is that the license for concealed carry only allows for concealing a handgun, and I don't see anything in Texas law that would specifically allow general concealed-carry of any non-licensed (i.e. non-handgun) weapons. My understanding is that in Texas, conceal-carrying other weapons besides a handgun is not legal (unlike Florida).

So, I'm still not understanding how it's legal, although I don't see anywhere where it's specifically illegal either. I am obviously no lawyer, I'm just reading the statutes and they seem to be written in rather plain English as such things go, but are vague enough to leave the question open.

So I guess, is this more of a grey-area type thing that hasn't been tested, so if for some reason you had to use your AOW in self-defense inside a 30.06 location, you'd be the "lucky" one to end up being the test-case for the legality? Note, I haven't really investigated any Texas case law in this matter, I wasn't quite that bored yet this Saturday afternoon.

RPB wrote:

Tristor wrote:I'm trying to clarify something here, as I've seen several references to it, but I'm not understanding how this works.

So, my understanding is that Texas issues Concealed Handgun Licenses, not Concealed Weapons Licenses or Concealed Carry Weapons Permits (i.e. it only allows for concealment of handguns, not other weapons).

So in this case, with the addition of a location that has a 30.06 sign posted, what is required in order to legally conceal carry an AOW/SBS (Serbu Super Shorty comes to mind)? I've seen several people mention this being legal, and I'm definitely interested in the possibility. So, can someone be a kind dear and link me to something explaining exactly how this legal interaction works that it's okay to conceal an AOW at all, much less past a 30.06 sign? On this same note, if it's legal past a 30.06 sign, I don't see why it wouldn't be legal to conceal carry an AOW elsewhere, so I wonder what would be considered the viability of shoulder-carrying (two-point sling under jacket/shirt?) a serbu super shorty as your EDC weapon? I'm pretty sure 4 rounds of buckshot beats 10 rounds of 9mm any day of the week.

I'm told ... The thing about the Super Shorty type guns in particular, are that while they are AOWs, they are subclassified under Federal law as smooth bore pistol category AOWs. (so, they are still pistols under Federal law, even if they don't fit Texas "handgun" definition well)

However a generic non-pistol AOW might work ... example: "cane gun"/"umbrella gun" ...."Zip gun"?.........etc with proper lengths etc (all I find are antiques though)....

30.06 only applies to handguns carried by a licensee, you could sling a shortened coach gun, which still complies to legal lengths etc. under the right coat maybe ..... or other non-pistol AOW or longarm

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club

Right, I understand the legal definitions of handgun. My concern is that the statute that allows concealed carry of a handgun, does not allow concealed carry of any firearm other than a handgun, and since open carry is not legal in Texas, I'm trying to fathom how I would legally be able to carry an AOW or other concealed non-handgun weapon in a building marked with the 30.06 provision that disallows CHL holders from carrying their handgun?

I'm trying to clarify something here, as I've seen several references to it, but I'm not understanding how this works.

So, my understanding is that Texas issues Concealed Handgun Licenses, not Concealed Weapons Licenses or Concealed Carry Weapons Permits (i.e. it only allows for concealment of handguns, not other weapons).

So in this case, with the addition of a location that has a 30.06 sign posted, what is required in order to legally conceal carry an AOW/SBS (Serbu Super Shorty comes to mind)? I've seen several people mention this being legal, and I'm definitely interested in the possibility. So, can someone be a kind dear and link me to something explaining exactly how this legal interaction works that it's okay to conceal an AOW at all, much less past a 30.06 sign? On this same note, if it's legal past a 30.06 sign, I don't see why it wouldn't be legal to conceal carry an AOW elsewhere, so I wonder what would be considered the viability of shoulder-carrying (two-point sling under jacket/shirt?) a serbu super shorty as your EDC weapon? I'm pretty sure 4 rounds of buckshot beats 10 rounds of 9mm any day of the week.