TexasCHLforum.com

rm9792 wrote:

Shoot Straight wrote:

djjoshuad wrote:The way I interpret the law is that the protection of any private property or business can be entrusted to anyone at any time, at the property/business owner's discretion. Assuming that said person can legally own a firearm, this would mean that they were legally able to carry a firearm on the property they have been entrusted with protecting.

I suggest people read the Texas laws concerning private security before following that advice.

Unless you're a lawyer and that's legal advice.

"entrusted with protecting" doesnt necessarily mean actiong as a security guard. All employees of every company are entrusted with protecting company property. The stocker at walmart is not likely to look the other way while you pocket digital cameras or something. I would also venture that all employees have some semblance of "control" over the property. Wander in the back areas of a store and almost any employee is going to question you and/or chase you out. I understand your private security point but everywhere I have worked has basically stated, in writing usually, that "Security starts with You". Maybe I am nitpicking and twisting but thats what the law seems to be about.

I agree with RM with the qualification specific to the situation we're discussing that the weapons code says a person has to be in control of the premises, not of the property/assets.

I think denwego said it well:

Control of property is exercised independently of ownership (example - your landlord can't enter your leased apartment without your permission, unless there's something in the lease you agreed to); it's also intimately tied in with possession and custody (you're in your friend's house with his permission and he's not around, de facto leaving you in charge; or, the borrowed car example). Without a really huge post, a court would be terribly challenged to refute someone being on "property under the person's control" if the owner of that property stood up and says, "I've given Mr. X control of my property, to the point that he can carry a handgun on those permises." Even using a lower standard like preponderance of evidence in a civil setting, that's a darn near impossible thing for a prosecutor to disprove... how could you refute the owner saying that in open court, so to speak. All of this assumes the owner/leaseholder/dude-with-the-final-say explicitly allows it; a normal employee without explicit permission would not be reasonably assumed to have control over premises in a satisfactory way.

So now I'm curious. What does it mean when a statute says "premises under the person's control"? We all have guesses (employee, manager, owner, etc), but what does that phrase mean to a legislator or lawyer? Here's what one legal dictionary says they mean:

Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary
http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/control-term.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
control
The power to direct, regulate, manage, oversee, or restrict the affairs, business, or assets of a person or entity.

I did a search of the statutes for the same phrase to see how else it is used. Control seems to be a very low legal standard. For example, a babysitter would seem to meet the penal code offense if she knowingly lets her charges make abusive calls to 911 as the phone will have been under her control at the time. This is just my reading of the phrase within the context of how it is used across all the statutes and obviously wouldn't hold any weight if a 20-yr-old was arrested and having to argue his case in court, but I think it does further the casual discussion we're having. So now the question, for me, becomes what in particular makes one in control of a premises. Especially in a small business, every employee might be invested with equal authority to direct or restrict access (eg kick someone out, sign for packages, etc) to the premises. If the owner has expressly granted them the authority required to be in control of the premises, it looks like a 20-yr-old could carry there in my totally unprofessional reading, except if he was intending to use the firearm in the course of his professional duties which would open him to the security guard statutes.

Here are some of the places the phrase appears in other TX statutes:

Penal Code Sec. 42.061. SILENT OR ABUSIVE CALLS TO 9-1-1 SERVICE.
(c) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly permits a telephone under the person's control to be used by another person in a manner described in Subsection (b).

Finance Code Sec. 181.002. DEFINITIONS. (a) In this subtitle:
(13) "Control" means:
(A) the ownership of or ability or power to vote, directly, acting through one or more other persons, or otherwise indirectly, 25 percent or more of the outstanding shares of a class of voting securities of a state trust company or other company;
(B) the ability to control the election of a majority of the board of the state trust company or other company;
(C) the power to exercise, directly or indirectly, a controlling influence over the management or policies of the state trust company or other company as determined by the banking commissioner after notice and an opportunity for hearing; or
(D) the conditioning of the transfer of 25 percent or more of the outstanding shares or participation shares of a class of voting securities of the state trust company or other company on the transfer of 25 percent or more of the outstanding shares of a class of voting securities of another state trust company or other company.

Civil Practice and Remedies Code Sec. 71.002. CAUSE OF ACTION.
(2) the injury was caused by:
(C) a bad or unsafe condition of the railroad, street railway, or other machinery under the person's control or operation.

Civil Practice and Remedies Code Sec. 74.001. DEFINITIONS. (a) In this chapter:
(3) "Control" means the possession, directly or indirectly, of the power to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of the person, whether through ownership of equity or securities, by contract, or otherwise.

Transportation Code Sec. 545.304. MOVING THE VEHICLE OF ANOTHER; UNLAWFUL PARKING.
A person may not move a vehicle that is not lawfully under the person's control:
(1) into an area where a vehicle is prohibited under Section 545.302; or

Finance Code Sec. 306.001. DEFINITIONS.
(2) "Affiliate of an obligor" means a person who directly or indirectly, or through one or more intermediaries or other entities, owns an interest in, controls, is controlled by, or is under common control with the obligor, or a person in which the obligor directly or indirectly, or through one or more intermediaries or other entities, owns an interest. In this subdivision "control" means the possession, directly or indirectly, or with one or more other persons, of the power to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of a person, whether through the ownership of voting securities, by contract, or otherwise.

Health and Safety Code Sec. 81.063. SAMPLES.
(a) A person authorized to conduct an investigation under this subchapter may take samples of materials present on the premises, including soil, water, air, unprocessed or processed foodstuffs, manufactured clothing, pharmaceuticals, and household goods.
(b) A person who takes a sample under this section shall offer a corresponding sample to the person in control of the premises for independent analysis.

Education Code Sec. 37.121. FRATERNITIES, SORORITIES, SECRET SOCIETIES, AND GANGS.
(b) A school district board of trustees or an educator shall recommend placing in a disciplinary alternative education program any student under the person's control who violates Subsection (a).

Finance Code Sec. 59.301. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:
(4) "Control" means the authority to determine how, when, and by whom an access area or defined parking area may be used, maintained, lighted, and landscaped.

SewTexas wrote:Divided has the main point.....all of us missed in dealing with the rest of it......you aren't old enough to have a handgun...plain and simple. no way around that one.

You can OWN a handgun at 18. You can't BUY one from a gun dealer until 21. You can purchase through a private sale, but you can't then carry it in public without a CHL, which you can't get until 21. Sooo... we're back at Square One.

Can you legally carry (open or concealed) on someone else's property without a CHL? If so, he can. If not, he can't.