Return to “Disarmed by uninformed officer”
I don't know what I want/expect. I just know that as of right now, I don't have confidence that the situation will be remedied.mojo84 wrote:What do you specifically want and expect from the sheriff?
Agreed, the deputy's lack of knowledge was addressed right there on the scene. He is now aware that it is NOT in fact illegal for a license holder to carry in a liquor store.WildBill wrote:I think the sheriff's response was all that could be expected from him.
He acknowledged that the deputy needed training and would get it.
It would not be proper to admit any wrongdoing or to discuss personnel or disciplinary matters in an email to someone outside the department.
My view is that the bigger mistake is the method that the deputy used to disarm the OP.
And his reply.....Sheriff Wagner,
I had an encounter with one of your deputies this past Friday evening that I felt needed to be brought to your attention due to the apparent gaps in the deputy’s training that may need to be addressed.
On Friday evening, 03/11/16 I entered White’s liquor store on highway 6. I was openly carrying a handgun in a kydex hip holster. Deputy <redacted> was behind the counter at the store. While shopping, I noticed Deputy <redacted> coming towards me. At the time I assumed that the deputy was about to check my LTC. Deputy <redacted> approached me from my left side (which happens to be my gun side). Without saying anything, the deputy reached out with both hands and began removing my firearm from the holster. I was surprised that he was disarming me, but moved my arm out of his way and asked what he was doing. The deputy stated that I could not have the firearm in the liquor store as he removed the firearm from my holster. I stated that there were no signs posted at the entrance, but if he was giving me verbal notice, I would put the firearm back in my car. Deputy <redacted> then stated that there were signs posted. I informed him that I was certain that there were not any signs posted as I have been in the store before and always check before entering. The deputy then stated that signs were not needed since it is illegal to carry in a liquor store. I politely informed him that there were no laws prohibiting license holders carrying firearms into a liquor store. Deputy <redacted> then stated that “they get more than 50% of their income from the sale of alcohol”. I then stated that he is mistaken, the 51% law pertains to locations where on premise consumption takes place.
Deputy <redacted> and I then proceeded outside the front door of the store so that he could “show me the signs they have posted”. At this time he still had my firearm in his hands. After allowing Deputy <redacted> sufficient time to read all of the signs on the front of the store, I pointed out the blue TABC sign that prohibits unlicensed possession of a firearm. No 30.07 signs were present nor were there any other signs indicating a prohibition of carry by a license holder.
Once Deputy <redacted> was satisfied that there were in fact no signs, I offered to place the firearm back into my vehicle before going back into the store to complete my purchase. The deputy stated “No, I’ll put it in your car”. As we approached my vehicle, I informed the deputy that my wife was sitting on the driver’s side of the vehicle and I requested him to place the firearm on the passenger side. He stated that he would just hand the firearm to my wife. I expressed apprehension concerning him handing off the still loaded firearm to her and requested that he allow me to remove my holster so he could place the firearm into the holster before handing it off. He agreed and I removed my holster and handed it to the deputy. Deputy <redacted> placed the firearm into the holster and then handed the holstered firearm to her. In the process of handing it to her, he swept my wife’s face with the muzzle of my holstered firearm (this was relayed to me later by my wife, I did not witness it myself). Deputy <redacted> never cleared the weapon, nor did he ever ask for identification from myself or my wife.
I am concerned about numerous aspects regarding this encounter. The two most troublesome aspects, from my perspective, of this encounter are:
1. This individual is representing BCSO while working an extra job in a liquor store without learning the laws that are applicable to liquor stores. I do not expect law enforcement to memorize the entire criminal code, but I would think that an officer would learn the laws that were applicable to specific situations that he has placed himself into. At the least, I would think that an officer would be sure of laws that he is taking physical action on.
2. The deputy placed himself into an extremely dangerous situation when he took it upon himself to reach out with both hands to remove a firearm from a holster. Had I not been compliant, or had I not recognized him as a LEO, the situation could have escalated extremely rapidly and would have had tragic results. Deputy <redacted> is extremely fortunate that I am not someone who had hostile intentions, nor am I one of those more fanatical 2nd amendment proponents. Had deputy <redacted> chosen to engage one of those other types of individuals, the situation would have ended much differently.
I appreciate you taking the time to hear my concerns and I am confident that you will take appropriate steps to address the issues outlined. Please feel free to contact me if you need any further clarification on this matter.
<signature redacted>
I have to say, I'm underwhelmedMr. <redacted>,
Training on the laws on open carry have been held for BCSO employees. I will check to make sure that Deputy <redacted> gets a refresher course on the laws.
Sincerely,
Charles Wagner, Sheriff
Brazoria County, Texas
He never cleared the weapon. That was why I requested him to put it in my holster before handing it off to my wife.Mavs00 wrote:Yikes... What a story. I'm new to TX, but not new to carrying.
I did not see this in the OP, but once he "disarmed" you, did he clear and rendered your weapon safe, prior to handing it off to a 3rd (unknown to him) party? I presume (not mentioned in the OP) he did not check to determine your wife's LTC status, outstanding warrants or her past criminal history prior to arming her? Based on your apprehension of him delivering an unholstered weapon to her, I'd tend to think he did not.
I would want to report to his department, if for no other reason then he could use some serious retraining (IMO). 1 is on the law (below) itself (as has been noted), and 2 is just disregard for his own safety.
1) Leaving the methods he took aside..... If he is moonlighting as a security guard in another county other then his primary jurisdiction, Is he really acting in the "lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties". Also, was it "reasonable" for him to think that it was necessary to disarm you for everyone protection under those circumstances? The law seems pretty specific to me. Look at it this way, if some plain clothed person approaches you, flashes some tin and says "he's the law" and want's to disarm you for his/our own safety (assuming you are legally carrying)? Would you just comply? That's hyperbole of course, but still... the point remains?
2) This is just a basic safety thing to me. Why the heck would he just hand YOUR weapon to an unknown (I presume he does not know your wife) 3rd person. For all he knows, he just armed a convicted felon? Or some other person that should not, or could not be in possession of a weapon? If he did not hand it to you directly, then place it on the passenger seat where YOU can take possession of it. That's what the statue directs (see below). Seems pretty reckless to introduce a third party (that he doesn't know) into the situation that involves a potential deadly weapon??? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me (for him). It's also a violation for him to do so.
Did he ever even check your LTC status?
GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.
(a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace
officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.
(b) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may temporarily disarm a license holder when a license holder enters a non-public, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, {snip.....}
1) Retention level was irrelevant in this case, the only reason he was able to disarm me was because I chose to allow it rather than escalating the situation. Had I chosen to not allow him to disarm, the situation would have likely become deadly VERY quickly.Solaris wrote:1) You need a better retention holster.
2) I would not have gone back in but would have got out, just in case the cop changed his mind and decided he was in the right and wanted to make an arrest.
I wasn't planning on a formal complaint. I'm the Brazoria County LEPC chairman and as such have the means to communicate directly with Sheriff Wagner.Keith B wrote:No he didn't She was in the vehicle and could then conceal the gun under MPA.oohrah wrote:Does your wife have an LTC? If not, the deputy violated the law by giving a gun to an unlicensed person. I would report the ignorant --- in any event.
That said, he was totally out of line the way he handled the situation. I would file a nice, but sternly written formal complaint with the BCSO.
He was in his Brazoria County SO uniform working as security for the liquor store. The liquor store is in Galveston county. This particular store often employs BCSO deputies for security.K5GU wrote:A few questions...was the officer off-duty and employed by the store as a private security officer and acting under the store's policies, or was he on-duty and acting under his department's policies? In Texas? What county?
If I had not been aware he was LEO, I'm fairly certain it would have been a lethal encounter.madwildcat wrote:Glad to see you handled it as well as you did. I would bet there are some that might not have responded quite as kindly. If he wasn't in uniform and you hadn't know he was a deputy, that could have ended a lot worse (for him).