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I always shake my head when people on the forum want to argue legal matters with Charles.

The Annoyed Man wrote:I guess I didn't remember the numbers correctly.......but that is still a HECK of a lot of UDTs KIA. JW is a worm. He was a worm before Chris Kyle ever joined the SEAL teams. The point I was trying to make before is that I don't think it serves anything to belittle UDT contributions, just because they have been replaced in the public eye by the SEAL teams.

I don't think it serves anything either. However, it's despicable that a man who was never a SEAL would claim to be a SEAL. He's trying to appropriate the honor of men who served in extremely dangerous conditions, 48 of whom never came home. His service was honorable, but he chose to steal the honor of others to make himself appear to be something he is not.

I'm proud to be a veteran, but I've always described myself as a Vietnam era veteran, because I never served in Vietnam. I did my duty, and I did it honorably, but I refuse to take away from the men who saw combat and, in some cases, died on the battlefield, to make myself appear to be more than I am. JV has done that all his life. In doing that he has not only dishonored the memories of those dead SEALs but also of his fellow UDT frogmen who served honorably.

The Annoyed Man wrote:Not that I'm any kind of fan of JV's, but I want to correct an impression about UDT's......the idea that they seldom see combat. I don't remember the exact number, but there were somewhere around 120 UDT's killed at Normandy.......by enemy fire. At Iwo Jima, where my dad fought, there were a dozen or more UDT's killed. Nearly every island assault in the Pacific resulted in UDT KIA. They may not have seen that much action during the Vietnam war because of the naissance of the SEAL teams, but it would be wrong to say that they were never combat deployed, or killed in action due to enemy fire.

In Vietnam the UDTs did hydrographic work, patrolling of rivers and deltas and destruction of fortifications, etc. The SEALS saw combat up close and personal. There were some engagements of UDT during the Vietnam war and they suffered one KIA. The SEALs had 48.

Whatever you may think of Jesse, the SEAL community thinks very strongly about him.

From Brandon Webb of SOFREP:
…Because of NSW’s celebrity, it’s even more important for SEALs to look at how they conduct themselves in the public eye and on social media. “Will what I’m about to do reflect positively on the SEAL community?” It’s a question I’ve been asking myself a lot these days, and the crux of my problem with Jesse Ventura.
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…The smartest thing I’ve heard come out of Jesse’s mouth was when he was quoted after the recent verdict saying, “There are no winners in this.” In fact, Jesse is the biggest loser in the end (next to the NSW community itself). This is a career ender for him, and an irrecoverable PR nightmare. His career as he used to know it is over.
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…And if Ventura was really concerned about the truth, and not the money, he should have told Taya Kyle on the courthouse steps that the $1.8M was hers to keep now that his name was cleared. But people with financial motivations don’t make this move.
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My problem with Jesse is not the alleged altercation between him and Chris, it’s about what happened after. Jesse (Janos) Ventura had plenty of opportunities to take the high ground in how he handled the situation. Instead, he made a series of bad decisions, the worst of which was to drag an American Hero’s widow and family in court, as if they haven’t suffered enough with their recent loss. As the father of three amazing children myself, I can’t imagine this scenario. It’s horrific.
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This is a sacred line, not to be crossed, ever Janos, and you will now have to live with the long-term consequences including a SEAL community that is polarized against your actions.

As for the claim that the story of Jesse is what sold the book, the evidence suggests otherwise.

'Sniper' sells: Former Navy SEAL Chris Kyle's American Sniper was an instant best seller when it was published 13 months ago. But after Kyle, 38, was shot and killed Feb. 2 at a Texas shooting range, book sales are soaring. The memoir is No. 2 on USA TODAY's Best-Selling Books list, up from No. 113 last week. In January 2012, it landed at No. 10 and stayed in the top 25 for eight weeks. Actor Bradley Cooper, who bought the film rights, plans to star as Kyle in a movie adaptation but has yet to sign a director.

VMI77 wrote:

baldeagle wrote:As to the claims made in the WaPo article, yes, it appears that Kyle exaggerated (or lied, if you will) about his "exploits" after mustering out of the Navy, but that's not surprising to me. He wanted to stay in, but his wife wanted him to leave. He probably missed the adrenalin rush of combat and tried to make up for it by telling stories. He wouldn't be the first vet who did that. But his accomplishments while in the service are unchallengeable. And it's quite interesting to me that WaPo chose to publish this after the verdict. It's the ancient American "sport" of taking the successful and revered down a notch or two after we've elevated them to sainthood.

Why does it appear that way to you? I don't see any evidence one way or another. For instance, the WaPo article claims the gas station shooting cannot be confirmed but links to another article that claims it is confirmed. If it's not true then it's not an exaggeration at all, but an outright lie. I read the book and he didn't strike me as a liar but I don't think there is any way to really know --at least based on what has been published in the media.

It appears that way to me because I think it's highly doubtful that he and another sniper killed 30 people in New Orleans during the Katrina disaster. Something like that would have been front page news, especially if any one of the 30 was black. I don't know why he would make up such a story, but I think it's clear that he did. In any case, he's dead now, and I think he should be allowed to rest in peace without dragging him through the mud in an attempt to rehabilitate someone else.

EEllis wrote:

baldeagle wrote: You obviously didn't bother to read the article I posted. It PROVES JV was never a SEAL and that he lied about being in SEAL Team One.

During Vietnam, UDTs became SEALs by volunteering or being volunteered for SEAL duty. No volunteers were ever turned down, because the SEALs were experiencing high casualty rates and needed replacements constantly. JV claims to have been a SEAL but he never volunteered and he was never volunteered. Graduating from BUD/S didn't make you a SEAL. Volunteering for SEAL duty did. JV has been lying about that his whole life. Go read the article I linked to and then come back here and tell us it's merely a matter of opinion.

What did you post and where? I agree that he was UDT not Seal. How many times must I say it in this thread? And actually serving for 6 months on a Seal team made you a Seal according to the navy. And yes it is a matter of opinion if a UDT can call himself a Seal or at least there are Seals that believe they can. Not all of them, I have no idea the percentages because I doubt anyone has polled them, but I have seen several Seals express the opinion that UDT from that era are entitled to call themselves Seals. Now I don't feel I'm qualified to tell those Seals they are wrong. If you go back up in the thread you will see where williamkevin posted a link to an article form a Seal who thinks JV is entitled. You seem to have misread that because you said that it was a fact not an opinion and that JV was a Seal. Now you get on me for what? Brandon Webb is a Seal, a friend of Kyles's who bashes JV pretty goo, and also believes JV is entitled to call himself a Seal. Now maybe JV shouldn't but with others saying otherwise I don't think you can assume that JV didn't just honestly think it was ok without having more info.

I'll let the readers decide.

But Jesse makes no distinction between those trainees who went to SEAL Teams and those who went to UDTs. He claims to have been a SEAL, as in these observations about going to Army Airborne School at Fort Benning immediately after BUD/S.

"[Airborne instructors] make you drop for push-ups whenever they drop one SEAL, we all drop." (p. 73)

"The second night we were [at Fort Benning], we snuck out and climbed up their water tower with a can of spray paint, and painted 'SEAL Team One' on the side." (p. 73)

There it is: Jesse was in SEAL Team One. He speaks of his pride as a SEAL: "We're a proud organization. If anyone tries to pretend they're a SEAL, God help them. You have to earn the right to be a SEAL warrior." (p. 81)

EEllis wrote:

JP171 wrote:

baldeagle wrote:

williamkevin wrote:Interesting debate about weather or not he was a real SEAL. I don't know where the line is drawn, but here is an article about this specifically written by Brandon Webb:
http://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-ven ... al-status/

Everyone has their own opinion on this, and this one is Brandon's.

It isn't an opinion. Brandon is correct. He graduated from BUD/S. He's a SEAL. He's a dirtbag too, but he's a SEAL. Just like John McCain, who served honorably and endured torture as a POW but now makes a complete ass of himself, Jesse went from being an honorable veteran to a dirtbag.

It happens sometimes. He should still be honored for his service but criticized for his jerkwad behavior now. Being a veteran doesn't exempt you from legitimate criticism.

JV the JACKANPES DID NOT complete SEAL training, he completed the BASIC UNDER WATER DEMOLITION TECHNICIAN course, there is a lot more to being a SEAL than blowing stuff up, the little wench did NOT complete Jump School(he failed), he did NOT complete Air Assault school(didn't get past the arch), he did NOT complete or even enter Ranger Q course. THE JACKANAPES IS NOT A SEAL he is a Under water Demolition Technician BASIC level. same as not every muncher LEG is an Airborne Ranger nor a Special Forces Operator. Anyone that thinks different doesn't know the SEAL Q Course nor the SF Q Course nor anything about OPERATORS in the SOC period, don't like that, hmmm well. and YES I have been there done that got the T-shirt and patch, crossed arrows

I'm no expert and my opinion means nothing but I will say I have read several articles and comments and at the very least there is some disagreement in the "Seal" community about the issue. He was UDT 12 and at that time, 1970, you had to complete BUD/s and then you were assigned to a team. After 6 months on a team you were then a frogman or seal. While they did plenty of training they did not complete any other schools before being assigned to a team and you got your NEC 5326, UDT's were 5321, after being on a seal team for 6 months not for finishing certain schools. So if JV had decided to go seals during the war he could of transferred within days of putting in because the casualty rate was high enough that they sometime didn't bother to ask for volunteers. So the training crap you're spouting doesn't seem accurate for when JV served which makes me wonder.

You obviously didn't bother to read the article I posted. It PROVES JV was never a SEAL and that he lied about being in SEAL Team One.

During Vietnam, UDTs became SEALs by volunteering or being volunteered for SEAL duty. No volunteers were ever turned down, because the SEALs were experiencing high casualty rates and needed replacements constantly. JV claims to have been a SEAL but he never volunteered and he was never volunteered. Graduating from BUD/S didn't make you a SEAL. Volunteering for SEAL duty did. JV has been lying about that his whole life. Go read the article I linked to and then come back here and tell us it's merely a matter of opinion.

EEllis wrote:

Jim Beaux wrote:The reason for all these negative stories regarding Kyle are from JV's publicists. Publicists operate beneath the surface and feed info to friendly columnists/bloggers to advance the goals of the client.

Thus the reason why we are bombarded daily with pointless articles about no talent celebrities such as the Kardashians.

It couldn't be because at first everyone just believed everything Kyle said and then after hearing the testimony in court and having some reporters actually try and check Kyles stories they started finding more and more lies?

Every published story has a reason for being published. Kyle is dead. Printing stories about his lies accomplishes what? It's an attempt to polish JV's image by proving that Kyle lied about some things. Well, he didn't lie about his kills, which is what his fame was based on, not the lies he told later, for whatever reason he told them.

EEllis wrote:That is one way to look at it but the court testimony was the widows so if she says they didn't give money away it seems reasonable to believe it's fact. Now I have already said that I don't blame her for waiting especially with the lawsuit, but there has been plenty of time both before Kyles death and after. There is no denying that the publishers repeat comments about how all of the profit is going to charity as a sales tactic is dishonest. Why would anyone need to show that she bought fancy cloths when they can show the profits which are now reaching something in the area of 6 million dollars and only 52 thousand donated. Heck a foundation would of made things easier tax and financial planning wise so some of the excuses are getting a bit thin.

You seem to forget why we are talking about him right now. It isn't because people are just trying to trash him it's because basically people are trashing JV because Kyle is just so great and how could JV do such a thing. Well people are getting the answer. Kyle wasn't just telling tall tales he lied about a fellow team member telling a story that would damage him in that community to help Kyle sell books or even worse so he could just play big shot on the radio. If Kyle did that, and a jury thinks he did, then it's a bad thing and he shouldn't profit from it. You shouldn't get away with doing bad things because earlier you did good things.

Unless you can prove that she has spent the money you have proven nothing. For all you know it could be sitting in a bank account waiting for her to figure it out so she can find a way to disperse the money without running into tax problems.

The "sales tactic" of saying all the money is being given away isn't dishonest unless you can disprove it. Stating that she's only given away $52,000 so far proves nothing unless you can also prove that she's spending the money on herself.

Jesse Ventura lied about being a SEAL. There's no question about that. He claimed in his book that he was in SEAL Team One. He was not. He put a photo in his book of himself with his team in a Sea Knight and claimed they were SEALs. They were not. They were UDT. The difference between the two is dramatic. SEALS had very high casualty rates and specialized training and were involved in combat constantly. UDT were almost never in combat and only lost one member when JV was in country. He deserves respect for his service, but lying about what he did and where he served is despicable. It's no wonder the SEALs want nothing to do with him. That wasn't Kyle's doing. Jesse did that to himself.

If you really believe that "You shouldn't get away with doing bad things because earlier you did good things." then you should be condemning JV for lying about being a SEAL. There is very little more despicable than stealing the honor of men who gave their lives in combat.

JP171 wrote:

baldeagle wrote:

williamkevin wrote:Interesting debate about weather or not he was a real SEAL. I don't know where the line is drawn, but here is an article about this specifically written by Brandon Webb:
http://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-ven ... al-status/

Everyone has their own opinion on this, and this one is Brandon's.

It isn't an opinion. Brandon is correct. He graduated from BUD/S. He's a SEAL. He's a dirtbag too, but he's a SEAL. Just like John McCain, who served honorably and endured torture as a POW but now makes a complete ass of himself, Jesse went from being an honorable veteran to a dirtbag.

It happens sometimes. He should still be honored for his service but criticized for his jerkwad behavior now. Being a veteran doesn't exempt you from legitimate criticism.

JV the JACKANPES DID NOT complete SEAL training, he completed the BASIC UNDER WATER DEMOLITION TECHNICIAN course, there is a lot more to being a SEAL than blowing stuff up, the little wench did NOT complete Jump School(he failed), he did NOT complete Air Assault school(didn't get past the arch), he did NOT complete or even enter Ranger Q course. THE JACKANAPES IS NOT A SEAL he is a Under water Demolition Technician BASIC level. same as not every muncher LEG is an Airborne Ranger nor a Special Forces Operator. Anyone that thinks different doesn't know the SEAL Q Course nor the SF Q Course nor anything about OPERATORS in the SOC period, don't like that, hmmm well. and YES I have been there done that got the T-shirt and patch, crossed arrows

It appears that you are correct. My respect for Ventura (what little was left) is now completely gone.

And now he's whining that while he's gotten his reputation back he can no longer go to SEAL reunions and will always have to watch his back. Well, Jesse has been a bit paranoid for a while now, so I'll let the watch his back comment slide. But the fact that he can no longer attend SEAL reunions (by his own admission) tells you everything you need to know about the respect he's accorded in the SEAL community. The fact that not one single SEAL is speaking out on his behalf speaks volumes.

As for the claims made in the National Review article, they are quite interesting. Here's some perspective. Chris Kyle had 160 confirmed kills. In his book, American Sniper, he claimed 235 kills but pointed out that 160 were confirmed. That's a 68% ratio of claimed to confirmed kills. The most famous sniper in history is the Finn, Simo Häyh. He claimed 700 and had 505 confirmed. That's a 70% ratio of claimed to confirmed kills. So I would say that Kyle was probably telling the truth about his kills. I guarantee you that there are Americans alive today that credit Kyle with saving their lives. Yet in the article, there are people claiming that his kills mean nothing because he was killing women and children and unskilled Iraqi fighters. I can't write here what I'd like to do to such people. Suffice it to say they don't have my respect.

As to the claims made in the WaPo article, yes, it appears that Kyle exaggerated (or lied, if you will) about his "exploits" after mustering out of the Navy, but that's not surprising to me. He wanted to stay in, but his wife wanted him to leave. He probably missed the adrenalin rush of combat and tried to make up for it by telling stories. He wouldn't be the first vet who did that. But his accomplishments while in the service are unchallengeable. And it's quite interesting to me that WaPo chose to publish this after the verdict. It's the ancient American "sport" of taking the successful and revered down a notch or two after we've elevated them to sainthood.

As for the money issued raised and discussed in the National Review article, those, to me, are scurrilous claims. The writer relates some court testimony but provides no other evidence to support his implication that Kyle's widow is getting rich of the book rather than helping veterans as they claimed they would. Kyle has been dead for a year and a half. During that time his widow has had to deal not only with her grief but also with the lawsuit (which has to be very painful for her). Yet the writer wants to criticize her for not having setup a charitable foundation and depositing the money there. He provides no evidence that she's upgraded her living arrangements, bought fancy clothes or a luxury car yet wants us to believe she's hoarding the proceeds for her own personal benefit. Talk about dancing on someone's grave. I'm shocked that National Review published the article. My respect for them has decreased dramatically.

Was Chris Kyle perfect? Only one man in history can claim that. Was he a genuine hero? Unquestionably. Should we be tearing him down because he told lies after retiring? To what end? What does it serve? Who benefits from it?

These are troubling times we live in. I call it the "filthing" of America, where nothing is sacred, every form of perversion is acceptable and genuine heroes now have to be publicly undressed to satisfy a sick desire to bring them down to our level. I mourn for America. What little of it is left is fading fast. I can only hope that I will be dead before it's gone completely, but I fear greatly that that will not be the case. Watching the country that I love die before my eyes is painful beyond description for this old Navy vet.

I will say this about Kyle's claim. According to him they were at "a SEAL bar". There should be witnesses to the altercation that can confirm or refute his claims of what Jesse said and of knocking Jesse down. Why those witnesses were not produced at trial is a legitimate question. Perhaps SEALs didn't want to get in between a battle between two fellow SEALs. Who knows?

Regardless of whether or not the altercation ever took place, Jesse never should have sued. Doing so, and winning at trial, has done a great deal more damage than anything Kyle did or didn't do. And Jesse will be stuck with that for the rest of his days.

williamkevin wrote:Interesting debate about weather or not he was a real SEAL. I don't know where the line is drawn, but here is an article about this specifically written by Brandon Webb:
http://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-ven ... al-status/

Everyone has their own opinion on this, and this one is Brandon's.

It isn't an opinion. Brandon is correct. He graduated from BUD/S. He's a SEAL. He's a dirtbag too, but he's a SEAL. Just like John McCain, who served honorably and endured torture as a POW but now makes a complete ass of himself, Jesse went from being an honorable veteran to a dirtbag.

It happens sometimes. He should still be honored for his service but criticized for his jerkwad behavior now. Being a veteran doesn't exempt you from legitimate criticism.

CHLLady wrote:This verdict made me sick. He does not deserve a dime. Doesn't he realize that this lawsuit hurt his reputation more than this book ever did?

Clearly he doesn't.