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Update:

1. Our dog is nearly healed. Her damaged right shoulder is not showing any signs of soreness though it has only been the last couple of days when I've taken her on very short walks. Before the attack, we walked about a mile each day which is about all that her short legs can handle. She is a Shih Tuz mix, weighing in at 18 pounds.

2. I presented the $250 emergency vet bill to the owners of the attacking dog. They paid it and also gave us a very sweet card which said how sorry they were about the incident. I truly believe that they had no idea about their dog's inherent prey drive. They were staying with my neighbor and have now moved several miles away to their own house. The wife also bought a cake for us at the local farmer's market. I bear them no ill will and recognize the attack was an accident. There is no way to tell if they learned anything from it.

3. I have not heard back from Animal Services. I've been toying with the idea of paying their manager a visit. The officer who responded to my call on the day of the attack was supposed to have verified rabies immunization on the attacking dog. I have to assume that it was OK or that they would have contacted me. I shouldn't have to make that assumption. I expected to get a copy of the responding officer's report. If do physically meet with Animal Services, that will probably be my lead in question: "what expectations should I have about your department as a result of your responding to my call about a dog attack?" This incident followed the same pattern as my call to them the day that I was bitten by the Doberman. My leg was still bleeding when the Animal Services officer arrived. I never heard anything from them after that incident. What was interesting was my riding my bike in the same neighborhood a couple of years later. That same dog was in the back of a car that passed me and tried its best to come through the side window at me.

I appreciate the dialogue that has been generated on this thread. I have to admit that the incident has done nothing for what was a healthy skepticism about pit bulls before it happened. But I profile all dogs, not by breed but by perceived age. I pretty much ignore any dog that appears to be a senior and I make that determination based on its movements. Younger dogs, particularly larger breeds, draw my laser focus.

My overall expectations have been solidified. I walk my dog in a public park. The Town has gone out of its way to place dispensers for doggie waste bags conveniently along the concrete paths and to provide waste containers too. In a half of a mile, my dog can find 25-30 piles from where owners refused to pick up after their animals. Given the number of people who walk their dogs in the park, I'd judge that the waste was created by about 20% of the people. Whether they believe that they have no responsibility or whether they just don't believe that they have to follow the Town ordnance is not clear. I find about 20% of the owners also do not obey the leash law. In some cases, it is clear that the animal is well behaved (better than mine but she is NEVER off leash) and they present no problem for anyone else. A fraction of the off-leash dogs show no signs of responding to their owner's commands and exhibit obnoxious and sometimes threatening behavior to other animals and to people like me on bicycles. While I shudder to think about these animals interacting with the many small kids who ride bikes in the park, I've abandoned all hope that the Town's Ordnance or the Animal Services staff are going to make any difference. I would equate it to the results from the Do Not Call registry. I'm left to deal with the situations on my own. I go out of my way to avoid them if there is anyway possible. But this incident made clear to me that I probably don't have the physical means to deal with an attacking dog and that confidence in the pepper spray that I've been carrying is unwarranted. I'm going to act accordingly.

RPBrown wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:51 am I have read all of the posts here and now I have to weigh in. We own a pit bull. Second one we have owned. We lost the first one to cancer last year after 13 years. The one we have now was originally owned by one of those that apparently wanted a mean dog. He was taken away from this guy at the age of 2 months, sat in a shelter until almost 4 months old until the case made its way through the court system and ownership finally released to the shelter. Now when I say he was abuse trained, I am talking broken ribs, leg, and foot. He was captured on video abusing the pup. The shelter was afraid to list him on the website because they were afraid he would send friends to adopt him and give him back so the director called us.
We also have a rescued golden retriever, German Shepard, and a 30 pound put together rescue.
Now, keep in mind, my dogs are house/back yard animals. They don’t leave our confines unless on a leash (nor should any dog).
They all go to the groomers (daughter owns the shop) and all get along real good with the other dogs there including our neighbors dog. I say that last part because they all go after the neighbors did through the fence. But they are protecting their yard.
I have spelled all of this out to make the following points, (1) none are vicious or dangerous unless protecting what is theirs (2) the most aggressive of the 4 is the littlest one (3) they will all protect my wife if needed but she can call them all down.
Any dog can be made vicious and/or dangerous and any dog can be trained to be good natured.

A couple of years ago there was a small pack of homeless “pit bulls” as described by witnesses that was terrorizing our neighborhood. The had attacked a couple of dogs and a person. They were all caught, news crews, and animal control people that were interviewed called them all pit bulls. The the showed the picture of these dogs. 1 was border collie, 1 was Shephard mix, and 2 were labs. Not a pit bull in the mix

I'm 100% with you on:
1. Pit bulls get a bad rap because other breeds are mis-identified as pits when bad things happen. The lazy reporting is the same mentality as some of sloppiness on "assault weapons."
2. Many dogs are deliberately made v9sious by owner actions either provoking them or failing to deal with bad behaviors when they start. We had a gentle lab mix next door to us in our first house. Its owner called it Rommel and tried his best to turn it into some sort of attack dog. It was the sweetest thing and all it really want to do was have you play tug of war with it when it brought back a stick that you threw for it to retrieve.
3. There are pit bull owners like you that are responsible and attend to their animals properly. You might even be the majority of pit owners.
4. Some small breeds are more viscous than pit bulls. In that context, they will lash out and bite at others. Chihuahuas are one that comes to mind. The difference it that they lack the capability of killing the objects of their attacks the way that pits can.

But how do you explain:
1. My sister's dog was attacked when the owner took her eye off of her pit bull and it jumped a fence that it had never been inside before. The dog that it attacked never barks or shows any aggressive behavior toward anything so it wasn't provoking the pit. There can be no claim of turf protection.
2. My dog was attacked on a public street. The owners just moved here from CA and claimed that their dog had never been in front of the house before. Again, it is hard to accept turf protection considering the distance, location and history. My dog can be mouthy but she had not been on this walk so there was no provocation.
3. The dog that attacked my sister's dog got off being a dangerous dog because of the owner's photos showing it with children. The dog that attacked my dog lives with a girl toddler. It is my opinion that the behavior of pits around children is not an indicator of their behavior around anything that they consider to be prey. That is why the owner of my dog's attacker could rightly claim that his dog never had behaved like that before. I would counter that it was young enough to have never gotten the opportunity before and that if given a similar opportunity again would behave in the same way repeatedly. The day after the attack, I observed that dog in the back yard behind a fence in a barking frenzy over a large old Irish setter walking down the street where the attack against my dog occurred. An animal that large is a stretch to be considered prey. I contend that young males in many breeds especially if they are not neutered are by far the greatest aggressors and that in pits, there is a greater percentage in that category. This is why I don't accept the AR-15 equation with pit bills. My AR is inanimate as some other poster suggested and no matter how many times it is left unattended, is not going to seek an opportunity to attack. It seems clear to me at that least some pit bills are always attentive for such an opportunity.

Hoodasnacks wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:53 pm
I don't blame you at all for feeling that way and I would probably feel that way too...it just makes me sad to see the statement of a "breed" affecting you, its a bad dog owned by a bad owner (just like an AR15). Their reputation is what attracts bad owners, and the reputation would likely be false but for the bad owners. It is a sad circle.

I will call you a responsible and diligent husband/father/pet owner for being cautious...and that is all.

So help me here.
1. The dog in my sisters case, when not monitored ever second by its owner jumped a fence and attacked my sisters dog.
2. The dog in my case deliberately by passed its owners, stealthily seeking its opportunity get out through a door to attack my dog.
3. While I'm less than enamored with the Animal Services rep on a number of levels, one of her points was that each of these dogs was displaying a "prey behavior that was breed into them. According to her, it is their nature. Ergo, some set of overt actions is REQUIRED, if they are to be safe in society and not running around killing other peoples pets. You may have experience that says that it is possible to do that and I don't for a minute doubt that. But just as it is not a requirement for every gun owner who buys a gun to take classes and demonstrate an understanding of the four safety rules, there is no requirement for a pit bull owner to take the overt steps to bring their dogs to a level where they are safe in society As a result, some are and some are not. My experience is that it is the younger males who have not be neutered that pose the greatest risk. Like the training, many pit owners seem unwilling to neuter their dogs.

Can you see why I now believe that too many pit bulls are like someone leaving a loaded, chambered gun around for the wrong person to pick up? They are smart. They are crafty. They are going to seek every opportunity to do what nature calls them to do. Are they the only breed like that? Absolutely not. But they are the only breed that, as you say, is attracted by irresponsible owners. I've known Akita owners. I fear that breed a lot more than pits. But there seems to be a greater sense of responsibility among those owners.

I wish it weren't that way. But that is reality. As I talk to other small dog owners in my area, we are afraid to have our pets out in public. Another loose pit mix trying to chase down horses on my block was the absolute last straw for me. My life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are being infringed.

The Annoyed Man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:05 am

Archery1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:38 pm

chasfm11 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:28 pm The Animal Control officer claimed that she rescues dogs that picked up for aggressive behavior.

That's exactly what she was "practicing" and not Animal Control. You have an injured dog, severely, and that was all that was before her and on her plate. Not the welfare of the attacking dog.

Chas, if I were you, I’d start audio-recording any further conversations you have with that particular animal control officer. You may be able to use that to leverage some positive action out of them, vis a vis dangerous dogs and her feckless attitude.

Great suggestion. My pocket recorder will be on for all future meetings with her. For reference, I just got an email from our street's distribution list. There is another pit bull who has been seen attacking the legs of the horses of some of the neighbors - I said that I live on a rural road. There was no mention of Animal Control being called about that dog. I will include that fact in my next conversation with the officer, too. By the way, the good news is that my dog did not have internal injuries and her shoulder is improving with the anti-inflamitory treatment.

NOW… let’s address the real concern… what you are probably worried about is whether your dog is now dangerous after biting someone or another animal. Possibly. Once a dog bites, it might bite again. Some learning has taken place, and you need to reverse that learning immediately. It is IMPORTANT now to set up an evaluation and behavior lesson for your dog. I recommend starting with a Behavior Lesson, but be prepared that you will probably need to do additional lessons. Each lesson is customized. These issues sometimes require diligent effort on your part, so you have to be prepared for that. Don’t let this go on, because it will only get worse if you ignore it. Biting and fighting can usually be fixed

http://samthedogtrainer.com/articles/be ... tes-blood/

I'm not suggesting that he is the authority on the matter but he is better as a resource than others. This is my main concern about the dog that attacked mine. it isn't the blood but the learned behavior. I've sent a warning to a woman down the street who walks two poodles. She would not have been as successful at defending her two as I was my one.

Hoodasnacks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 pm
You are actually both wrong--German Shepherd bite strength 238 PSI; American Pit Bull 235 PSI (so basically the same). American temperament society test pass rate: German Shepard 85.3%; American Pit Bull 87.4%. Pits actually score higher than golden retrievers (85.6%) and collies (80.8%).

Sorry--I'm a nerd on these types of things. Pitt Bulls are the AR-15 of Dogs. They are not significantly more dangerous than others just like guns--but are still dangerous. People also often see a scary dog and often incorrectly identify it as a pit (https://www.earth.com/news/pit-bull-bite-statistics/ "A study of shelter staff and veterinarians found that the participants over-identified dogs as pit bulls. Only 25 pit bull-type breeds were used in the study, yet participants labeled 62 dogs as pit bulls. Additionally, victims may be more likely to report dog bites from breeds they deem dangerous over less intimidating breeds.") Not saying that you are doing this at all--just pointing out that the stats on this subject are often wrong/over-inflated. There are lots of stats/studies on the issue. E.g. boxers are often mistaken for pits.

I've got to be honest. I don't care. I don't accept the equation that a pit bull is like an AR-15. I don't worry about the statistics. My personal experience is that pit bulls are more often owned by people who shouldn't have them and are unwilling to control them than any other breed. I'm not sure what it is that draws these types of people to these dogs. It is not the dogs themselves (like it is not the guns themselves) but the "users" I have made it a point in the past to ignore other people and their dogs. I frankly don't care what they do with their animals - as long as it doesn't affect me. Now, this breed is affecting me and my family. I'm no longer neutral on them. That is just the way that it is going to be, right or wrong. Call me what you will.

Archery1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:07 pm
Sounds more like you have an animal "activist" working in animal control. That person is not working off the laws and just working for dogs. Just for comparison on luck of the draw as to animal control, I was jumped by 2 pit bulls while walking. Reported it to animal control with just an address. A week later was on a plane waiting to taxi and phone rang. The animal control officer was at the residence, verified address, and asked me what I would like for them to issue, a warning or $300.00 ticket (helped that this residence already had a few on file). I said give em' a ticket.

The Animal Control officer claimed that she rescues dogs that picked up for aggressive behavior. She has German Shepards but apparently picks up others including pit bulls. Our Animal Control has a reputation for a lackadaisical approach to repeat offenders. There was a little poodle mix that used to chase me on my bike. If I get into my pedals, I could easily outrun it but I and many of the neighbors reported it for being loose. Animal Control set near the house, trying to catch the owners in the act. When they did, it was a $25 fine. There were multiple complaints afterward but I'm not aware of any more actions against the owners. $300 would make a big difference. I will definitely ask what happened to the owners in my case.

flechero wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:42 am
Maybe/Maybe not, but you were extremely lucky. Next time is the unknown/concern now. You or someone else faces a "next time" since the dog wasn't dealt with this time. Not to mention it now has a taste for blood that it may not have had the other day. I hope you never see it again, but not being prepared next time, after a big warning, is unwise.

I've replayed the incident in my mind repeatedly all last night. On one level, I feel terrible for not being able to protect my dog. But I will very straight forward say.

1. It was nearly impossible to detect the dog coming. I had lost my glasses during the incident. When I finally found them, I knew exactly where the incident happened. Looking backward, the dog's exit of the house was hidden by a parked car. The home owner (not the owner of the dog - that couple is staying with her) said that she understood that the dog escaped through the front door when it was carelessly opened. The car blocked my view of the lower part of that door so it is likely that the dog was at full speed by the time it cleared the front of the car. It is about 50 yards from that car to where the dog attacked my dog. Even if I had seen and could have tracked the dog visually and with a draw to first shot of slightly over a second, it would have been almost impossible to hit it while it was incoming. It is a young male pit bill. I'm guessing that I would have had about 2 seconds.
2. I was not aware that there was a pit bull in that house. The family has two smaller terriers and a very old larger mixed dog. Had I seen the movement, it would have likely taken me longer to recognize that it wasn't one of the resident dogs.
3. Had I seen it coming, my instinct is to pick up my dog (she only weighs 18lbs) rather than draw my gun. Again, it is unlikely that I could have gotten down, picked her up and gotten her out of the pit bulls way before it arrived. As bad as this outcome was, that one could have been worse. Having the dog attacking me at the same time would have likely further impacted my ability to separate them.

The dog was out in a fenced in yard this morning, barking at another neighbor's dog as it was walked down the street. That behavior runs counter to the Animal Control officer's opinion that my dog was viewed as prey/a squirrel. The dog being walked this morning was a large Irish setter. I have no expectation that the Animal Control officer will find aggression worthy of action, regardless.

My resolve is that I will never be out unarmed again. When I leave the house to leave the neighborhood, I never am. I was foolish to believe that being next door to my house did not require it. I won't be that foolish again.

Jago668 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:29 am
At least you know there is a law for it though. Like with anything regarding shooting, you never know what a cop, da, judge, or jury is going to do.

When this is settled, I plan to schedule an appointment with the head of the animal services unit to discuss the Health and Safety wording. They would play a big role in any prosecution, I suspect.

striker55 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:29 am One more point, a dog doesn't have to bite someone before being declared a dangerous dog, being aggressive can.

I have two things which refute that expectation.

1. According to the Animal Control officer, only when an attacking dog actually kills its "prey" has there been any success in getting the offending animal declared as a dangerous dog. Even some cases where humans are attacked,the court will not agree to the dangerous dog designation. I took her through the attack on my leg by a doberman and she said that I would have had a near zero chance of getting that animal declared a dangerous dog.

2. My sister in Pennsylvania, through the local animal control and district attorney's office, took the owner of the pit bull that attacked her Pom to court and won dangerous dog and a judgement for the $1,200 in medical bills The owner, acting as her own attorney, filed an appeal. The assistant district attorney represented my sister. The owner called herself as a witness and lied to the court on the stand about the circumstances of the attack. My sister's vet testified and was attacked as not being a credible witness about the damage done to my sister's dog. The appellate judge enforced the payments for the vet bill at $50 a month but overturned the dangerous dog. The dog is now free to come back outside my sister's fence that it jumped. In response, my sister increased the height of her fence to 6 feet. I'm not certain that is enough.

For those who don't know, a person with a declared dangerous dog must post signs to that effect at their residence, not have their animal out in public without a muzzle carry $100,000 worth of liability insurance and, in PA, pay $500 per year to the State for having a dangerous dog. The owner of the pit bull that attacked my sister's dog was already making payments to the State for unrelated past legal judgements against her and was not capable of meeting the financial requirements for having a dangerous dog. My editorial comment is that the owner's financial situation played a large role in the case being overturned on appeal. It is likely that the owner would have had to give up the dog or euthanize it if forced to meet the dangerous dog requirement. The owner showed pictures of her dog with children and the court bought it. How the dog behaves around children is irrelevant to the dog's behavior against animals like other pets that it considers to be prey.

Liberty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:10 am

Jago668 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:03 pm Check out Health and Safety Code, Title 10, Chapter 822, Subchapter B. Sec 822.013

"(a) A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by..."

If it's good enough for Rick Perry it should be good enough for us peasants.

The difference was that Gov. Perry shot a wild coyote. This is another domestic animal. While I'd like to believe that I could have taken the attacking dog out without consequence under the Health and Safety Code, I don't.

C-dub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:22 pm
Does or did your vet do any x-rays or other lab work?

Not yet. I've been given specific symptoms to watch for which could indicate internal bleeding. The Vet was very through in going over her legs and back and could not pinpoint a problem other than her one shoulder which might need xrays. He said nothing is broken and that it was probably hyper-extended in the attack. He wants to see the effects of the anti-inflammatory medication. Right now she isn't even eating enough to get a pain pill into her.

C-dub wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:01 pm Chas, I hope your girl is going to be okay. She may end up quite a bit afraid to outside for walks from now on, so hopefully you can find something else to do when she recovers.

The person that told you a dog will fight through the pain may have thought your were talking about OC spray and not Open Carrying a .45ACP. Although, we know they will fight through that until and unless something vital is hit that stops them.

Since you know who the owner of the Pit is I hope LE can handle this and they will pay for all your girl's medical and the Pit is quarantined and evaluated whether or not it should be put down.

You are right about OC meaning pepper spray when I was talking to her. I deliberately did not mention that I normally carry a gun in that conversation so the OC was not open carry. A .45ACP round through the back of the dogs head would probably have stopped everything.

Animal Services is handling this. She said that she will evaluate the dog for excessive aggressiveness but indicated that she was unlikely to find that. The more she talked, the less I felt any security that the matter wasn't simply going to be brushed aside. We'll see. Right now, I'm just trying to get through the night with my dog. I'm watching for more symptoms. A trip to the emergency vet in the middle of the night could still be in my future.

Jago668 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:03 pm Check out Health and Safety Code, Title 10, Chapter 822, Subchapter B. Sec 822.013

"(a) A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by..."

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Interesting. The animal control person didn't even hint that such a law exists. I would be interested to know about any case law on domestic animals and whether pets are part of that definition.

The other complicating factor is that we had been walking in front of the house where these people where staying. They are not the owners of that house. The attack dragged us from the roadway onto that property. So I would have been discharging a weapon on someone else's property. I'd guess that makes the situation more iffy. I probably could make a better case if the attack occurred on my own property.

cheezit wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:18 pm Or is it a case of irresponsible owners?

It is always about the irresponsible owners. The irony is that we face the same thing with guns. People do bad things with them and the rest of us get blamed. The one point of agreement between me and the animal control officer was that the very people who shouldn't have pit bulls get them. I know that there are a lot of responsible owners out there who have pit bulls. But the irresponsible ones who might do better with a cocker spaniel, bypass that breed in favor of a pit. Why can't irresponsible people get chihuahuas? The animal control person said that chihauuas are a lot more aggressive than pits - and I believe that - but they are not capable of inflicting the kind of damage that pits can. She also tried to sell me than many other breeds can do a lot more damage in a full on attack - like a German Shepard. That might be true but Shepards have a lot more predictable behavior than pits do, IMHO.