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03Lightningrocks wrote:
Is it my imagination or did you just repost the exact same words you posted earlier in the thread?

I might have. I've written that post a couple of items and, at the last moment decided not to actually submit it.

Failing memory is a horrible thing......

JALLEN wrote:

PhillRoath wrote:
All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

Well in this particular case, they did not.

Were they young thugs? older men? Sometimes, they scatter like roaches when the lights go on, as in that case in Florida where the two young looking perps tried a robbery at a so-called Internet Cafe. One older man pulled his .380 and fired shots, and the two perps couldn't get out of there fast enough. They were armed with a baseball bat and a pistol that might have been either a fake or a pellet gun etc. Once the shooting started, they forgot all about everything but vamoosing on the double.

I don't think you can count on criminals being particularly smart, not smart enough to weigh the consequences of various courses of conduct quickly. You mess up their OODA loop and take the initiative...... "Who Dares Wins!" provided you know what you are doing.

Remember Chris Kyle, the SEAL sniper who was murdered last year? He faced a couple of armed robbers at a gas station with pistols pointed at him close range, acted boldly, with the confidence that comes from lots of top-notch training and loads of experience, and shot them both dead. There has to be some advantage in doing all those hundreds of thousands of push ups in cold water, cold, wet, tired and miserable.

My vivid imagination fills in some of the missing facts from this story differently than yours.

1. I assume that they waited until they were all inside before initiating the robbery. My limited understanding of the normal layout inside a McDonalds building suggests that meant that they were spread out for more than 20 feet and not bunched together. It would have been almost impossible for me to figure out how many were involved because I would likely have tunnel vision toward the first one that I saw.
2. Since there was a group, I would have expected no less than 3 guns. As you point out, one or more of them could have been fakes or pellet guns but I would expect one or more of them the be real and loaded.
3. I've not seen many videos where BGs practiced good trigger control. My expectation of that is that a CHL firing at one of them would likely produce a reflex discharge from one or more of them so that there would be multiple shots fired in very short order. I seriously doubt that I'm good enough to figure out which of the BGs remained a threat, even if all of them appeared to be scrambling for the door. It would only take one of them panicking and trying to prevent people from following by spraying bullets indiscriminately back into the building.

I don't ever expect to have the training and discipline of Chris Kyle so that comparison for me is not valid. I get your point - it is more important to confidently act but I also know that many seconds often pass by for me before I know the actions to take. One on one or even two on one situations are different. My OODA loop probably tilts after I have to try to deal with 3.

rbwhatever1 wrote:It's easy to read the outcome after an incident and say one way or another how one would handle that particular situation since it's already over and published in the news. I could never force myself to lie on the floor and wait to be executed. Since I cant predict the ending I would be participating heavily in the beginning. Dying on one's feet is much better than dying on ones knees.

While I understand the principal, I'm having trouble applying it with this situation. I guess we've all made our own assumptions about pieces of information that were missing in the story. Here are mine.

1. They waited until they will all inside before pulling the first gun and they had a signal where all of them would act together. My target selection computer would "tilt".
2. There were at least 3 guns. More than two and my target selection computer might get to "tilt"
3. They had spread out so that a visual sweep without turning your head would have been difficult or impossible.
4. I have yet to see a BG practice good trigger control. Assuming that I did manage to see what was happening and target and hit one bad guy, the sound of my gun going off would likely trigger a reflect action among the others and there would be greater than 2 other gun shots in a split second. Who knows where those rounds would go but the resulting chaos would likely mess up whatever next action that I originally planned. I was counseled that "everyone gets some before anyone gets seconds" but that strategy might be hard to pull of if a lot of things are moving at once.

There might be a lot of other factors. Is someone directly watching me while they are trying to prone out everyone? Do I have a chance of drawing undetected as I start for the floor? Overall, this situation looks a lot like the Kobayashi Maru in real life.

Jumping Frog wrote:So, I went car shopping yesterday with my 18 year-old son and had $4,000 in my pocket. We stopped at a McDonalds about 7 miles away from the one that got robbed to get some lunch, so I told him about this story.

His response bothered me. He told me he thought that someday I am going to be in that kind of situation with multiple assailants, get riddled with bullets, and die.

At age 18, he is all about liking to argue any position with Dad and consistently argues the liberal side of any issue.

May God please help this troubled young man.

Relax. You will be completely surprised at how much smarter you are going to get in the next 3-4 years.

Actually, taking a side of an argument that you don't believe is sometimes a great learning tool. I've been known to do it a time or two myself. It is a way of testing your own ideas with others who share them. A "devil's advocate" approach forces you to think like your discussion adversary.

Remember that your son has likely had 18 years of Liberal indoctrination. Your discussions with him can be great tools of helping to undo that if you take them as a challenge and don't give in to frustration or disgust because of his positions. I have to honestly say that I was probably no better at his age. My parents got a lot smarter, too.

Back to the OP, this situation is one of several possible scenarios that continue to haunt my thinking. I've accepted the fact that just having a gun is not going to protect me in every situation. It is somewhat like having acute situational awareness while driving. I've averted many accidents by seeing them start to unfold in time to react. But I know that there are many other situations where having good SA will not help.

On balance, there was the church shooting in France where a congregation member with a small caliber pistol took on a group of BGs with a lot heavier weapons. Sometimes, it is about how much courage you have and not about how much you are outnumbered. In a crowded fast food place, however, I cannot imagine it ending well if shooting starts.