Fair point. How would you score that if you had a Hornady LnL or a Dillon 550? I've never claimed my chart was perfect. Glad to change if y'all think it should say something different.Jumping Frog wrote:I agree that single stage presses are easy to change the dies -- changed many dies myself on a single stage press. For non-Breech Lock presses, aka a standard press, I am partial to the Hornady lock rings as the set screw does not bugger up the threads like the RCBS lock ring set screw. Once a die is lock-ringed, changing it happens as fast as you can screw the old one out and the new one in.NcongruNt wrote:The Lee Breech-Lock Challenger single stage is a snap to change dies on.
The point I was addressing was he rated "Ease of Caliber Change" as a 1 for single stage presses and 3 for a progressive. I can lift out my quick-change turret and change all 4 dies in my Loadmaster in the same amount of time it take me to change one die in my single stage. I am not saying a single stage is bad, I am saying that a "3" rating seems a little too harsh for a progressive since it is as easy as a single stage.
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Return to “What Press for a beginner?”
- Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:06 am
- Forum: Reloading Forum
- Topic: What Press for a beginner?
- Replies: 30
- Views: 5037
Re: What Press for a beginner?
- Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:53 pm
- Forum: Reloading Forum
- Topic: What Press for a beginner?
- Replies: 30
- Views: 5037
Re: What Press for a beginner?
Spoken like somebody who is really out of touch with the beginning reloader's challenges.Rifleman55 wrote:Buy a Dillon and be done with it, I have been using one for about 20 years. I started with a single stage Pacific, in the early 60s there was nothing else but single stage. I doesn't take a rocket scientist to load quality ammo on a progressive press. I will get flamed for this, you get what you pay for, leave the Lee cast presses in the junk bin where they belong.
I have a couple of RCBS's that are older than most of the posters here, when I got them Dillon was not in business.
One thing I'll say, I'm surprised it took this long before a "Blue Press Religious Fanatic" posted on this thread. It's not Dillon presses that put me off (they're decent, but very overpriced), it's the Holier-Than-Thou attitude the users all eventually seem to get infected with. Your post, sir, is an outstanding example.
- Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:24 pm
- Forum: Reloading Forum
- Topic: What Press for a beginner?
- Replies: 30
- Views: 5037
Re: What Press for a beginner?
Right, and experienced reloaders can be very comfortable with any press, I would think. If you told me to use a single press, I think I could hit similar rates as well (ok, ok, a _little_ slower ). The key here is "beginner." I would never recommend a progressive loader to a beginner unless they had an experienced reloader helping them every step of the way. And, of course, when people upgrade to a progressive, it's not like they toss the single/turret press away -- it gets used for those fun "boutique" loadswharvey wrote:... (good comments deleted)...
BTW, just like in choosing a carry gun, holster or most anything, it is unlikely you will end up with the perfect solution the first time. Reloading, like most hobbies, can be very addicting and if you are like most will be adding and changing as you grow. There is no getting around it.
- Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:33 pm
- Forum: Reloading Forum
- Topic: What Press for a beginner?
- Replies: 30
- Views: 5037
Re: What Press for a beginner?
Because in a single stage, you are literally performing one stage at a time. This entails a stop to change dies, plus the need to have case holders for your works in progress (well, AFTER you make the first mistake of knocking over a few cases that you have already loaded with powder ).v-rog wrote:Why do you rate the "ease of reloading" a single stage press a 3?
Relatively speaking, a single stage is less easier for reloading than a turret, which is less easier than a progressive. I suppose the key factor here is reflected in the average rounds per hour you can load, so maybe that line is redundant.
- Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:25 pm
- Forum: Reloading Forum
- Topic: What Press for a beginner?
- Replies: 30
- Views: 5037
Re: What Press for a beginner?
ok, I thought I'd throw this down for my opinion. Y'all are welcome to criticize. I'm probably going to "grow" this over time...
(A) Costs are always relative. The costs listed here are the kind of prices you can expect just for the press. I left out the costs for things like shell plates, dies, etc, which can vary wildly. A caliber change for a one type of progressive press can run you over 2x more than another. Once you decide what TYPE of press, you have a lot of additional homework to do. I'm also not including all the costs for standard reloading tools like scales or calipers
(B) Load accuracy is a function of several things, but during reloading, precise and identically cocistent powder charges are critical, expecially for long range hunting loads. Turret and Progressive presses don't NORMALLY support the precise feeding of charges, although a skilled reloader will tell you that it's easy to remove the automatic powder drops from high end presses and have the same level of accuracy. While this is very true, it eliminates the key speed benefits of turret or progressive presses. Mechanical imperfections in progressive press stage rotations can also introduce microscopic changes in bullet seating and alignment, although this is more likely (again) due to the convenience of speed afforded by these presses, rather than to an inherent superiority of single-stage style presses.
(C) Turret presses come in two flavors, auto-indexing, like the Lee Turret Presses or non auto-indexing, like the Redding Turret Press. The need to manually index the press head can have a significant impact on speed. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
(D) There's some arguments about whether a progressive press requires more workspace than a turret or single-stage press. They all need to be mounted to a sturdy location, more or less permanently, as the arm motions can cause the work surface to shift. Progressive presses, however, tend to be sturdier and impart more motion just by virtue of the constant pulling and rotation of the press. A more-fair argument, however, is that progressives require fewer motions to load the same number of cartridges
(E) This one is likely to start World War IV, but let's step back a minute. Most seasoned reloaders tend to view the world from their current experience rather than their starting experience. It's natural. I don't remember how much I struggled with Algebra when I was first learning it, but I'm pretty sure all those letters and number mixed together were pretty confusing at first. Same goes with reloading. It's more than the press; It's recipes, case preparation, Cartridge OAL, bullet weights, fiddling with scales and calipers, picking the right powder (or your 3rd or 4th choice because the store is out of your first choices). Beginners want their initial experience to be a good one, and there's no better way to kill a new reloader's enthusiasm then the myriad ways that a progressive press can go wrong out of the box. Progressives require good alignment, testing, and most of all, patience. An experienced reloader already moves with the familiarity of adjusting dies, figuring out primer loaders, and just how much wiggle room they have in their favorite bullet recipe. In addition, Single and Turret presses are considered to be functionally identical in terms of this rating, with the exception that all die elements are held in the turret, rather than in separate bushing assemblies for the single stage press.
For those of you STILL interested in progressives, consider reading this document for comparison ( http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLee ... rison.pdf). Keep in mind, however, that progressive reloading people tend to divide into two camps, Dillon fans and Everything Else fans. This document is not entirely kind to Dillon fans.
(A) Costs are always relative. The costs listed here are the kind of prices you can expect just for the press. I left out the costs for things like shell plates, dies, etc, which can vary wildly. A caliber change for a one type of progressive press can run you over 2x more than another. Once you decide what TYPE of press, you have a lot of additional homework to do. I'm also not including all the costs for standard reloading tools like scales or calipers
(B) Load accuracy is a function of several things, but during reloading, precise and identically cocistent powder charges are critical, expecially for long range hunting loads. Turret and Progressive presses don't NORMALLY support the precise feeding of charges, although a skilled reloader will tell you that it's easy to remove the automatic powder drops from high end presses and have the same level of accuracy. While this is very true, it eliminates the key speed benefits of turret or progressive presses. Mechanical imperfections in progressive press stage rotations can also introduce microscopic changes in bullet seating and alignment, although this is more likely (again) due to the convenience of speed afforded by these presses, rather than to an inherent superiority of single-stage style presses.
(C) Turret presses come in two flavors, auto-indexing, like the Lee Turret Presses or non auto-indexing, like the Redding Turret Press. The need to manually index the press head can have a significant impact on speed. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
(D) There's some arguments about whether a progressive press requires more workspace than a turret or single-stage press. They all need to be mounted to a sturdy location, more or less permanently, as the arm motions can cause the work surface to shift. Progressive presses, however, tend to be sturdier and impart more motion just by virtue of the constant pulling and rotation of the press. A more-fair argument, however, is that progressives require fewer motions to load the same number of cartridges
(E) This one is likely to start World War IV, but let's step back a minute. Most seasoned reloaders tend to view the world from their current experience rather than their starting experience. It's natural. I don't remember how much I struggled with Algebra when I was first learning it, but I'm pretty sure all those letters and number mixed together were pretty confusing at first. Same goes with reloading. It's more than the press; It's recipes, case preparation, Cartridge OAL, bullet weights, fiddling with scales and calipers, picking the right powder (or your 3rd or 4th choice because the store is out of your first choices). Beginners want their initial experience to be a good one, and there's no better way to kill a new reloader's enthusiasm then the myriad ways that a progressive press can go wrong out of the box. Progressives require good alignment, testing, and most of all, patience. An experienced reloader already moves with the familiarity of adjusting dies, figuring out primer loaders, and just how much wiggle room they have in their favorite bullet recipe. In addition, Single and Turret presses are considered to be functionally identical in terms of this rating, with the exception that all die elements are held in the turret, rather than in separate bushing assemblies for the single stage press.
For those of you STILL interested in progressives, consider reading this document for comparison ( http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLee ... rison.pdf). Keep in mind, however, that progressive reloading people tend to divide into two camps, Dillon fans and Everything Else fans. This document is not entirely kind to Dillon fans.