Search found 8 matches

by chabouk
Thu May 13, 2010 3:24 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

Keith B wrote:I didn't go too far into the research, but can tell you the map is incorrect. It shows Tennessee as green and they do NOT have restaurant carry. Who knows how many other states have errors on them.
Here is the current situation in Tennessee, as I understand it:

1. The Tennessee legislature passed a restaurant carry bill.
2. The Tennessee governor vetoed it.
3. The Tennessee legislature overrode the veto.
4. Tennesseans briefly enjoyed legal carry in restaurants that serve alcohol.
5. A Tennessee court ruled the law too vague.
6. The law is still on the books, but is in curious legal limbo; the law says it's not illegal to carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol, but one particular court say the law can't be enforced. Wait... what? The law doesn't proscribe anything, so it can't be "enforced" in the first place.
7. I'm not a follower of Tennessee legislation, so I might be out of date, but: I believe the same veto-proof majority is hard at work on a replacement bill that addresses the court's concerns.
by chabouk
Wed May 12, 2010 3:43 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

In the interest of fair discussion, I tried to determine, from sources not related to opencarry.org, exactly which states ban carry anywhere alcohol is served (as opposed to "sold").

The first thing I ran into was an impressive wall of disinformation about the recent Tennessee bill to allow restaurant carry, and the Virginia bills (a couple in recent years) to allow concealed carry in restaurants. (It's currently illegal to carry concealed in a Virginia restaurant that serves alcohol, but perfectly legal to carry openly).

Multiple news articles and editorials in both states conflated (deliberately, I must believe) bans on "bar carry" with "restaurant carry". They also conflate (again, I must assume it's intentional) "sold" with "served for on-premises consumption").

In Virginia, for instance, there is no such thing as a "51% bar"; to serve alcohol, every establishment must be a restaurant with a kitchen and derive half their income from food. Only concealed carry is prohibited in such restaurants, thus the "Virginia tuck", where concealed carriers transition to open carry when they enter restaurants.

Still, the detractors called it the "guns in bars bill", One Tennessee law firm editorialized (yes, a law firm wrote an editorial column that was widely quoted as "news"), that the Tennessee bill would be the first time any state had legalized guns where alcohol was served.

Again, this was flagrantly false. Years ago, Arkansas changed their law. Before the change, guns were prohibited anywhere alcohol was served. After the change, Arkansas became functionally like Texas and the "51%" law.

There is a lot of deliberate disinformation on this issue. I fear too many of our pro-gun friends have swallowed the Brady/CPHGV line, because they're worried about political fallout.
by chabouk
Wed May 12, 2010 3:08 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

Charles L. Cotton wrote:In fact, the vast majority of states prohibit carrying in any establishment that serves alcohol and some prohibit carrying in any locations that sell alcohol even if it is not for on-premises consumption. Texas prohibits only carry in bars (51% locations).
Cite, please?

I'm using a reference map, and it's from opencarry.org (and I realize you have a personal beef with the owners, or at least it seems like you do), but when it comes to "restaurant carry" (places that serve alcohol, but aren't 51%-style "bars"), the map is pretty interesting:

One state (Arizona) requires concealed carry, but carry is legal
Two states (Montana and Virginia) require open carry, but carry is legal.
Eight states (New Mexico, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Ohio, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Louisiana (debatable, because of conflicting laws)) ban carry anywhere alcohol is served for on-premises consumption.

Now, not every state is a "carry state", but eight is a long way from being a "vast majority" no matter what their licensing restrictions are.

You might be able to dig out more info from handgunlaw.us, but their site is impossible to search because they use .pdf documents for every page.
by chabouk
Tue May 11, 2010 11:25 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
chabouk wrote:In every other state (with the exception of the California "UOC" movement), OC just doesn't cause a problem for gun owners in general, or CC in particular. The Virginia OC folks actually fought for improved conditions for CCers, but trying to legalize CC in restaurants that serve alcohol (unlicensed OC is legal there, but licensed CC isn't).
If OC was not a problem in states where it is technically legal, then there wouldn't be an OpenCarry.org. Read their website and see the complaints about how OC'ers are being treated.
As I said (emphasis added): "OC just doesn't cause a problem for gun owners in general, or CC in particular."

OpenCarry.org was hardly carrying the ball to get restaurant carry reformed.
I didn't say they were. I said "Viginia OC folks". That said, I disagree that "OpenCarry.org was hardly carrying the ball". If you look at the Virginia sub-forum, you can see how much political activism takes place there.
by chabouk
Tue May 11, 2010 11:21 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

frazzled wrote:
Conagher wrote: “idiot OC supporters” from last session:

I would like to try to close this and move forward. I hereby publically and humbly apologize to any and all that were offended, angered, slighted or otherwise disturbed by any and all OC supporters from last session. In all sincerity I ask that you accept this apology and allow this issue to be put to bed. I have spoken with my senator and representative, neither of which feel in the lease bit put-off on the Texas OC effort. If you have a legislator that feels otherwise, please send me a PM and I will personally contact them and apologize. Thank you.
People don't forget. The politicians you burned won't forget it and they have other issues to deal with that are much more pressing.
Can you elaborate? What politicians got burned? And by whom? And what evidence do you have that anyone is holding a grudge against the entire notion of OC?
by chabouk
Tue May 11, 2010 2:27 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

I think I'm just going to sit back and let SA-TX keep making my points for me. He's much more diplomatic about it than I might be, plus by the time I get home from shift work, he's usually beaten me to the punch.

In every other state (with the exception of the California "UOC" movement), OC just doesn't cause a problem for gun owners in general, or CC in particular. The Virginia OC folks actually fought for improved conditions for CCers, but trying to legalize CC in restaurants that serve alcohol (unlicensed OC is legal there, but licensed CC isn't).
by chabouk
Mon May 10, 2010 2:23 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

OC advocates willing to toss all other gun rights under the bus? What? :headscratch

The only "under the bus" issue I recall from 2009, was Students for Concealed Carry proclaiming that they had nothing to do with OC, and didn't want any talk of OC scaring away legislators who might support campus carry. Not that it did them any good, in the end. I don't recall any OC advocates declaiming campus carry until after the fact, when some said they could no longer support SCC (although almost all had been supporting them until then).

I recall lots of worry that passing OC would result in an increase in places that were off limits for all gun carriers. I didn't agree, but I do remember the concern. Those were CC advocates worrying about OC, not the other way around. The legislative fixes to allay those worries were pretty simple, but too many people were thinking inside the box.

I don't recall any cases of OC proponents either advocating, admitting, or even subtly hinting, that they would accept a reduction in CC rights in exchange for legal OC. For the most part, OC advocates are 2A absolutists: "shall not infringe" is pretty darn clear, and the 14th Amendment is also pretty clear to everyone except nine people in silly costumes, whose predecessors invented "incorporation" and limited it to certain amendments. And they did so specifically because they were worried that the "wrong people" would be able to enjoy full Constitutional rights; specifically, the right to keep and bear arms.

I recall accusations that open carry advocates were a bunch of "outsiders" interfering with Texas. I don't recall the accusers admitting that over 8,000 Texans signed the OC petition. Mike Stollenwerk, one of the founders of opencarry.org (Lt. Col., U.S. Army, Retired), was called an outside agitator, despite owning a home in Killeen and having been stationed at Fort Hood for several years. And the truly ironic thing is that of everyone on OCDO, he's particularly sensitive to issues of "perception", and just this past weekend urged people to not OC 1911s, because the "cocked hammer" might scare people.

Open carry advocates tend to truly support RKBA without limits. Most I'm acquainted with don't support limitations based on citizenship, previous criminal record, or licenses that grant an exemption to carry bans. To the degree that anyone argues "OC is Constitutionally protected, CC isn't", I believe they're just trying to point out the case law history, as SA-TX did a good job of analyzing. I don't know any OC advocate who believes in further restrictions on CC or any other form of carry.

This is why the recent Arizona law has been dubbed "Constitutional Carry": no license or permission needed to carry concealed, openly, loaded, in a vehicle, or otherwise. The availability of a concealed carry license is a courtesy for those Arizonans who might visit states where "Constitutional Carry" is not yet recognized.

Several years of effort by TSRA to gain carry rights went unrewarded in Texas. I salute the efforts, and I support TSRA. But the one thing that finally got concealed carry legalized in Texas was the sea-change of public opinion that swept Ma Richards and her cronies out of office. No offense to the TSRA efforts, but those were the years when the Republicans started sweeping the nation for reasons mostly unrelated to gun rights. We have concealed carry today because Texans (like the rest of the country) were PO'd at, and scared of, Bill Clinton.

Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America swept into office, and the Texas CHL was a fortunate side effect.

I don't support any restrictions on CC (except those that violate private property rights), but I do support OC.

Shall. Not. Be. Infringed.

Those words are clear enough.
by chabouk
Sun May 09, 2010 1:31 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 21184

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

austinrealtor wrote:
SA-TX wrote:OK Legislature passes open carry. Assuming it becomes law, TX will be one of the very few that continues to prohibit it. :mad5
http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=12424101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sorry, but I have to question your premise above. Direction quote from the article you linked:
Ten other states allow residents with handgun permits to openly carry firearms, according to the National Conference on State Legislatures. In Montana, citizens can openly carry a handgun without a permit.
So according to the article, Texas is one of 38 other states that DO NOT allow open carry. Don't see how that equals "one of the very few that continues to prohibit it".

Am I missing something?
Simple: the article is wrong. Would you expect anything else when it comes to journalism about guns and gun laws?

There are currently only seven states with no legal means of open carry: Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Illinois, Florida, South Carolina, and New York. There are 14 states where OC is legal with a license, although the likelihood of getting a license varies from Utah (must-issue) to Hawaii (no way). California has legal open carry in rural areas, and legal "unloaded open carry" everywhere else except for school zones. That leaves 28 other states where OC in unquestionably legal, although there might be some hassle associated with the practice.

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