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by aggie06
Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:06 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Utah CHL Instructor Story on WFAA
Replies: 231
Views: 32399

Re: Utah CHL Instructor Story on WFAA

baldeagle wrote:
aggie06 wrote:Adding more layers of regulation (i.e. when you can or can't get a Utah license) is just asking for more problems. We would all like others to be more proficient with firearms, but forcing Texas residents to jump through more hoops is not the answer.
That wasn't what was suggested. Anyone can get a Utah license any time they want. The suggestion is that Texas require that Texas residents who want to carry have a Texas CHL. Whether they want a Utah CHL as well is their business.

As Charles has pointed out, this issue isn't going to go away simply because we wish it would. Unless we suggest reasonable solutions, the legislature may decide to get really radical and not recognize Utah licenses at all. That certainly would be worse than what's been suggested, don't you think?
I was referring to the insinuation that Utah licensees should be required to know Texas laws. I don't think we should suggest solving "problems" with more rules. The choices is not between suggesting rules that don't help and letting the legislators overreact. If we make Texas licenses more attractive by reducing the wait times, doing what we can to secure reciprocity agreements with more states, and reducing the fees required, I think we would counter most of the arguments people have to become licensed in Utah.


baldeagle wrote:
aggie06 wrote:Texas deadly force statutes should be known by everyone, not just people with Texas CHLs, but that won't happen either. I certainly don't want my mother (or any other non-CHL) to be forced to take a class on those statutes before she can keep a loaded 1911 in the nightstand or a shotgun in the closet. I'm afraid that expecting Texas laws be taught in order to grant reciprocity would be a slippery slope toward just that, requiring it of anyone keeping a gun for self-defense. I realize that may be seen by some as a "sky is falling" way to look at things, but I think you get my point.
I'm not following you. Your mother doesn't have to have a CHL or know deadly force law to keep a loaded weapon in her home. Reciprocity has to do with CHL holders, not people who only keep guns in their homes.

However, which would you prefer? That Texas residents be required to have a Texas CHL to carry in Texas? Or that Texas withdraw reciprocity with Utah (which effectively accomplishes the same thing but is a much worse solution.) Nevada has already done so. Let's not let Texas follow suit.
Again, referring to the insinuation that you should not be able to carry in Texas without a class on Texas law. Everyone is still subject to those laws whether they have a CHL or not. I am simply saying that we should not let our legislators start down that slippery slope of requiring more training for Utah CHLs. It could very easily go from that to requiring a class before you can keep a loaded weapon in the car. Even if we did change the law to require an additional class, people would get the Utah CHL and take the class. Then we'd have a news story on the Utah loophole that allows Texas residents to avoid the range time or the CHL processing wait. We already have people upset that we get our own line at the Capitol. No matter what we do, the antis will not be happy until everything is banned.


baldeagle wrote:
aggie06 wrote:In addition, all of us make sure we figure out where we're allowed to carry in states we vi[sit before we attempt it. I would expect that Texas residents getting Utah licenses would do the same thing. I would venture to say that, generally, the primary motivation for Texas residents getting Utah or other states' licenses is not the inability to hit a giant piece of paper from close range or pass a multiple choice test; it is more likely the motivation is either the high cost of the Texas license or the simple fact that a Utah license is recognized in more states.
That may well be, but it's inarguable that some people want a Utah CHL because they can't get a Texas CHL. And I can guarantee you that the politicians will take notice of that fact and introduce legislation to "correct" that problem. The question before us, then, is what's the solution that does the least damage to our rights.
Of course some people want a Utah CHL because they can't get a Texas CHL, but I would be willing to bet it is a very small number. We need to find out why those people can get a Utah license but not a Texas license. If the requirements are different, we need to either change our requirements, or we need to take a look at why we recognize licenses like that. I am not clear on why someone would be eligible for a Utah CHL and not a Texas CHL. Other than the stated lack of a test and range qualification, what are the other differences between their requirements and ours?
by aggie06
Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:54 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Utah CHL Instructor Story on WFAA
Replies: 231
Views: 32399

Re: Utah CHL Instructor Story on WFAA

Adding more layers of regulation (i.e. when you can or can't get a Utah license) is just asking for more problems. We would all like others to be more proficient with firearms, but forcing Texas residents to jump through more hoops is not the answer.
gringop wrote:Does the Utah class teach Texas laws on use of force?
Does the Utah class teach Texas laws on defense of a third party?
Does the Utah class teach Texas law on carry in a vehicle without a CHL? Threat of deadly force against an attacker? 30.06 and 51% signs? Prohibited weapons? Deadly force to protect a third person's property?

The State Legislature and DPS developed and implemented the whole CHL process 15 years ago to ensure that Texas CHL holders proved that they knew the laws and how to handle and shoot a pistol. They set up provisions for reciprocity with other states so out of state visitors could protect themselves when in Texas. They didn't set up reciprocity so cheapskate Texans who can't pass a multiple choice test and shoot 50 rounds at a B-27 could carry.

New Mexico just canceled their reciprocity with Utah because the Utah requirements are so weak, I would love to see Texas do the same thing.

Gringop
Texas deadly force statutes should be known by everyone, not just people with Texas CHLs, but that won't happen either. I certainly don't want my mother (or any other non-CHL) to be forced to take a class on those statutes before she can keep a loaded 1911 in the nightstand or a shotgun in the closet. I'm afraid that expecting Texas laws be taught in order to grant reciprocity would be a slippery slope toward just that, requiring it of anyone keeping a gun for self-defense. I realize that may be seen by some as a "sky is falling" way to look at things, but I think you get my point.

In addition, all of us make sure we figure out where we're allowed to carry in states we visit before we attempt it. I would expect that Texas residents getting Utah licenses would do the same thing. I would venture to say that, generally, the primary motivation for Texas residents getting Utah or other states' licenses is not the inability to hit a giant piece of paper from close range or pass a multiple choice test; it is more likely the motivation is either the high cost of the Texas license or the simple fact that a Utah license is recognized in more states.

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