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by A-R
Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:04 pm
Forum: 2015 Legislative Session
Topic: Open Carry Bills 2015
Replies: 64
Views: 12169

Re: Open Carry Bills 2015

mojo84 wrote:I understand and appreciate your position. I just have personal knowledge of some officers that make it a standard practice to disarm all chl's when they stop them. We've argued about it and the fact they have to leave the person to go back to their car to write the ticket and leave the person unattended is in their mind creates reasonable belief is necessary for their safety. I disagree with this whole heartily.
And, depending on circumstances, that's an abuse of the authority. But a few bad apples ...

Correct the misuse. Don't prohibit all LEOs from using a much-needed officer safety provision.
by A-R
Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:32 pm
Forum: 2015 Legislative Session
Topic: Open Carry Bills 2015
Replies: 64
Views: 12169

Re: Open Carry Bills 2015

mojo84 wrote:I will have to think about the wording but I like the idea. Many cops take the current wording as carte blanche approval to disarm someone even if they have no reason to believe it necessary.
Think about it like this:

"Reasonably believes" ( very generally) is what a LEO needs to frisk someone for safety (Terry v Ohio)

"Probable cause" is what a LEO needs to arrest someone

Probable cause is a much higher standard.

You only need "reasonable belief" (among other tipping points like immediate necessity, imminent threat) to defend yourself with force or deadly force.

Raising the standard to probable cause puts LEO's lives in danger by lessening their ability to control a scene.

And don't forget, we're only talking about temporary disarm not confiscation. Under current law the LEO SHALL return the firearm to the rightful owner upon completion of the interaction (unless there is probable cause to arrest or confiscate).

Currently if a LEO has made contact with, for example, 2 or 3 subjects who are all armed, he can temporarily disarm them for his safety if he can articulate why (outnumbered, previous interaction, known history, articulable body language etc).

Under this new standard, the LEO would be required basically to articulate the equivalent of an arrest merely to temporarily disarm the subjects.

Now, put yourself in the LEOs ' shoes: you're out alone at night with 3 armed subjects who are acting squirrelly ... would YOU feel safe if you were required to let them each keep their guns until you developed enough info to basically arrest them? Or would you prefer to temporarily disarm them while you conducted your investigation, alone?

Certainly LEOs past, present, and future have abused this authority to disarm. But that's not reason to throw out the baby with the bath water.
by A-R
Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:41 pm
Forum: 2015 Legislative Session
Topic: Open Carry Bills 2015
Replies: 64
Views: 12169

Re: Open Carry Bills 2015

ELB wrote:In addition to what locke_n_load pointed out, Stickland's HB 195 also raises the requirement for when an officer may disarm someone, from "reasonably believes" it is necessary to protect the licensee, officer, or others, to "has probable cause to believe the person [with a handgun] poses an imminent threat to themselves [sic], the officer, or another individual."
This is a preposterous change. By the time you have probable cause to believe an imminent threat, it's too late to politely disarm an individual or group.

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