Search found 4 matches

by Conagher
Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:38 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry?
Replies: 87
Views: 11709

Re: Open Carry?

frazzled wrote:
Conagher wrote:Interesting and thoughtful discussions by all. In reviewing the posts a couple thoughts come to mind I would like to express for your consideration.

How often in our travels, and places we have or do live, have we experienced the practicing of Santeria, voodoo or other forms of extreme religions? I suspect some of the rites and ceremonies would also draw notice from the general public, if not outright shock. It is never my intent to practice any of these extreme religions, but they are legal and protected by our Bill of Rights. Valid examples of free speech could also be given; there are certainly elements of this right that we are not exposed to on a daily basis and not considered common, thank goodness, but it is still legal and protected by our Bill of Rights. The point is commonality does not and should not equate to legality. Nor should it be justification for civil rights violations.

Your immediate reaction to this second item may be defensive but it is not intended to be an attack. So please don’t take it as such.

In regards to businesses posting 30-06 signs in response to any legalization of open carry; could the issue really be with the current 30-06 law? Please hear me out. I believe there is little questioning that the current 30-06 law is consider a major victory and has proven an effective solution for the issue it was intended to solve. However, we have a new issue now that may require a different solution. If you research the science and/or art (depending on your viewpoint) of decision making it is not uncommon for a past solution to become part of a future issue. I think this may be where we find ourselves today in regards to open carry vs. 30-06 law. We should not view it as an insurmountable obstacle, but rather as an opportunity for continuous improvement. And just so we are under no illusions; whatever solution is found for the current issue (and I believe we can in fact find one), could very well be part of another issue in the future.

Thanks and have a nice day.
Not sure what your argument is here. If a grocery store owner doesn't want you sacrificing a chicken to the voodoo spirits on aisle 13 then they can forbid that as well.
Hello frazzled. Thank you for your response. Please allow me to clarify.

The religious ritual of sacrificing a chicken is not illegal. I would not be arrested and prosecuted for exercising the civil right of religious freedom. I understand the actual means of sacrificing could be an issue, but then the charge would be something other than my civil right of religious freedom. The same cannot be said for your civil right to bare arms; referring specifically to an open carry handgun in Texas. I could in fact carry my AR-15 into this supermarket without violating any laws.

As for practicing this religious freedom in a supermarket, you have now infused private property rights vs. civil liberties into the scenario. However, I believe we have historically produced effective means to address these type issues as well – please refer to the current 30-06 law as an example of this that addresses a specific 2A right.

Thanks and have a nice day.
by Conagher
Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:26 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry?
Replies: 87
Views: 11709

Re: Open Carry?

Interesting and thoughtful discussions by all. In reviewing the posts a couple thoughts come to mind I would like to express for your consideration.

How often in our travels, and places we have or do live, have we experienced the practicing of Santeria, voodoo or other forms of extreme religions? I suspect some of the rites and ceremonies would also draw notice from the general public, if not outright shock. It is never my intent to practice any of these extreme religions, but they are legal and protected by our Bill of Rights. Valid examples of free speech could also be given; there are certainly elements of this right that we are not exposed to on a daily basis and not considered common, thank goodness, but it is still legal and protected by our Bill of Rights. The point is commonality does not and should not equate to legality. Nor should it be justification for civil rights violations.

Your immediate reaction to this second item may be defensive but it is not intended to be an attack. So please don’t take it as such.

In regards to businesses posting 30-06 signs in response to any legalization of open carry; could the issue really be with the current 30-06 law? Please hear me out. I believe there is little questioning that the current 30-06 law is consider a major victory and has proven an effective solution for the issue it was intended to solve. However, we have a new issue now that may require a different solution. If you research the science and/or art (depending on your viewpoint) of decision making it is not uncommon for a past solution to become part of a future issue. I think this may be where we find ourselves today in regards to open carry vs. 30-06 law. We should not view it as an insurmountable obstacle, but rather as an opportunity for continuous improvement. And just so we are under no illusions; whatever solution is found for the current issue (and I believe we can in fact find one), could very well be part of another issue in the future.

Thanks and have a nice day.
by Conagher
Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:53 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry?
Replies: 87
Views: 11709

Re: Open Carry?

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Conagher wrote:Thank you srothstein for taking a stance against this authoritative elitism. I am saddened at the obvious reality, even on this forum that the liberalization of our great national has neutered our American independence. But to realize the pacification is so extensive that one could agree, much less support such irrational behaviour from one who is sworn to “protect and serve” is almost incomprehensible.

"Trust me on this, it may be legal for you to do so, but carrying open and not being a LEO is going to be MUCH greater trouble than you will want to deal with."

IMHO, any one who is not totally outraged at such an oppressive sentiment has either a complete disregard, or a perverted misunderstanding of the principles of our founding fathers and the premise on which this country was founded.
There is a big difference between agreeing that certain events would occur if open-carry were legal v. agreeing that a LEO would be justified in drawing on someone solely because they are carrying openly. I believe you are painting with too broad of a brush.

If open-carry is ever legalized in Texas, then any LEO drawing down on and detaining someone solely because they had a visible handgun is going to find himself/herself and their agency in a very bad situation. It will be a clear civil rights violation and §1983 lawsuits will follow. Possession of an openly-carried handgun would not constitute probable cause any more than wearing a blue suit on Fridays.

As I have said several times before, I believe the risk of the public's response to OC in Texas is not that LEO's will respond improperly, or that the Legislature will repeal the concealed-carry statute, but that customer complaints will prompt many businesses to post 30.06 signs. Anyone who was around in 1995 and who was old enough to care will remember the flood of "ghostbuster no-gun" signs that were popping up everywhere. Only passage of HB2909 in 1997 that created TPC §30.06 stemmed the tide of businesses posting there property against concealed-carry. Posting of businesses declined dramatically not because the business owners had a change of heart, but because they didn't want to post a big ugly sign.

Chas.
Hello Charles. Thank you for your comments. Actually, in my initial response I was not referring specifically to open carry even though that is clearly the subject matter and I can certainly understand it may be construed as such. I believe I would be equally disgusted if in the referenced LEO phase above the word “open carry” was replace with ”voicing your opinion”, “practicing your religion”, or any other civil right.

Thanks and have a nice day.
by Conagher
Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:42 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry?
Replies: 87
Views: 11709

Re: Open Carry?

Thank you srothstein for taking a stance against this authoritative elitism. I am saddened at the obvious reality, even on this forum that the liberalization of our great national has neutered our American independence. But to realize the pacification is so extensive that one could agree, much less support such irrational behaviour from one who is sworn to “protect and serve” is almost incomprehensible.

"Trust me on this, it may be legal for you to do so, but carrying open and not being a LEO is going to be MUCH greater trouble than you will want to deal with."

IMHO, any one who is not totally outraged at such an oppressive sentiment has either a complete disregard, or a perverted misunderstanding of the principles of our founding fathers and the premise on which this country was founded.

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