TexasCHLforum.com

Dragonfighter wrote:I think the DPS response is echoing their policy on what information is considered publicly available. I.E. the number of chl holders, distribution (# per county) and demographics (gender, age brackets). I don't think it means they can gather information FROM CHL holders nor should they have access to information that is identifiable.

I actually spoke with Jean O'Shaw (DPS attorney for CHL) as did my attorney. Her position was that because the State Fair entity had leased the Fair Park, they basically could require whatever they wanted (ie. CHL holders name, address etc). She was
not interested in hearing any of the reasons (quoted from the DPS Concealed Handgun Laws booklet) why I thought it might be against existing state law.
Robert Smith (State Fair attorney) was also contacted. His refusal to respond and identify the specific rules to be applied equally at all gate entrances was/is an effort to make the problem just "go away". The State Fair changed 1 line on their website.:http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/faqs/bring.asp

under "may I bring"

...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrances. License holder's name will be made accessible to law enforcement officials. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.

Anytime a LEO views your CHL license your name is made available to him. But the requirement to allow Fair officials to record anything about you (CHL)? Is that not a list?

Sen. Dan Patrick: "I contacted the Department of Public Safety (DPS) regarding your question about bringing a gun to the State Fair with a Concealed Handgun License (CHL). Here is what they told me in response:

- DPS spoke with the Counsel for the State Fair and told him about concerns regarding the collection of personal information of CHL holders. This had already been done back in Oct.
- The State Fair will now look into this situation to make sure all policies are uniform including the way any information is gathered regarding CHL holders in the park. The way information is gathered regarding CHL holders....?
- DPS stated that the information taken about CHL holders should not in any way identify the person as a CHL holder, and they agreed. I'm sorry, if this statement isn't political, lawyer, double talk I don't know what is. But, how do you take CHL information from someone, and then not in any way be able to identify the person (CHL)?

I'm really glad Sen Patrick's office sent you a reply.

txbirddog wrote:Just a "power" play. Trying to prove their importance. Maybe next time they will learn the rules.

???

AEA wrote:More likely they are cutting back their useless security during the last days of the fair. No need to spend any more money for feel good appearances at this late date.

More excellent reasoning by the Management......

karl wrote:

5thGenTexan wrote:I think I heard last night that the Wells Report will be having a segment on the Fair this afternoon. If they do it could be an opening to bring ths toipic to the forefront. I'm still undecided as to wheather mentioning their crack screeners inability to locate known handguns would be a good idea or not.

On one hand it might show why some of us might feel more comfortable being able to take charge of our own families security, yet it also could alert the less than savory out there that the odds are they MIGHT get their 9 in wirh them. Thoughts???

I'm going to go ahead and say that's probably not a good idea. At the moment you're free to take charge of your family's security by avoiding an illegitimate policy. If this were brought up I would bet large sums of money that they would strike down the problem.

It's kind of like not telling anyone you have a CHL, no one really needs to know.

The screeners inability to detect legally carried weapons are not the problem. The problems are: screeners not being discrete, the requirement to produce CHL to non-LEO personnel, the inconsistency of the "policy" being applied and the recording of CHL personal information.
If a BG wants to bring a illegal weapon to the Fair, simply throw it over the fence and pick it up later, or toss it to a amigo already on the inside. The only folks the wanders seem to be catching, are law abiding, lawfully carrying CHL. Who are NOT trying to break the law, who are NOT trying to avoid a ID check by LEO and who are statistically the most likely to NOT cause any problems or trouble.

edited: if anyone wants to call into the Wells Show this afternoon the number is 214-787-1570. If you get through, please be courteous and on point.

jimlongley wrote:There is always the possibility that some of the lack of response could be attributed to the fact that the fair ends in a few days and the issue will go away.

it may go away for 2009, but what about 2010, 2011, 2012 etc. Until they (State Fair of Teaxs) post to their website EXACTLY what their "policy" is, this matter is not closed. It will be repeated over and over unless the CHL community and 2nd ammendment folks continue to force the issue. Who wants to do all this again next year? Worry about being outed by
a moron at the gate? Having your information recorded? Verbal redicule, a condescending attitude or unwelcome attention at the gates upon attempted entry? Rolling the dice to see if the wand person "finds" your carry?

I'm paraphrasing several posts......"I went to the Fair, I gave them all the information they asked for, I went in, had fun, and now I'm second-guessing myself, or mad, or having a form of buyers remorse, 'cause they asked for the information and I gave it to them". ???????
The only consistent inconsistency is what gate you enter, who's wanding, what day it is, what time it is, what the weather is,
etc. There is no consistency to how, where or when the Fair personnel handle CHL's.

off big tex.com (http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/faqs/bring.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. OK. Licenses will be examined at the entrances. (should be examined ONLY if demanded to show ID by a LEO). License holder's name will be made accessible to law enforcement officials. (is the guy taking names in the golf cart a law enforcement official?).Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." (duh).We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience. ( the assumption that CHL'ers aren't safe or are a detrimental force on the safety or security of the Fair).

Your name is made available to the LEO on duty as soon as he looks at your CHL and matches your face to the license. If you are wanded and it doesn't beep; why the need to say anything at all regarding your concealed carry? You are under no obligation to say anything, unless a LEO demands your ID. There are no signs at the gates stating a "must reveal and give up your name, address and DL#". It's not on their official website. At least I want them to be honest about their "policy". Put the "policy" out for the public to see, THEN they (CHL's) can decide whether they will submit to volunteering information or not attending.
I won't subject myself to having any information recorded; to each his own.

killerfly128 wrote:

Brazos wrote:Gemini or someone said that John David Wells may do a show (KLIF 570 AM) or talk about this issue. Did anything happen or did anyone talk to JDW? His show is sponsored by DFW Gun Range and he seems to support CHL and constitutional issues. Here is a local one, hot topic and I bet he would jump on it.

Anything come of this?

I know Mark Davis was uninformed and not concerned but just haven't seen an update on JDW.

I spoke with JD today about it. When ever he was told about it the facts were a bit off, JD is rather concerned with the legality of all of this and has to make sure he has all his ducks in a row before attacking this issue. I am sure that if JD and his staff were to look at it further and make sure that the state fair is out of line on this legally he will gladly go to bat. Someone just needs to take the time to get a lengthy email put together and send it to him VIA email then follow up with a phone call. I am sure it would help get the ball rolling if an attorney also contacted Mr. Wells and gave some advice on why he should cover this. I think we have a few attorneys on her so if one could lend a hand it would make things much smoother. My guess is that JD has received some flack in the past with the whole CHL issue and wants to make sure he has a leg to stand on before presenting it to his rather large listener base.

Interesting. A guy I know had called 570 and got the program director's cell number. He asked me to call. I called Thursday (10-8-09) and Mr. S.J. seemed very interested in the topic and asked me to call again on Friday around 1:00pm. Which I did. JDW wasn't in yet. Asked me to call back in 30 minutes. Which I did. His phone went to voice mail. I called several times. Each time I got voice mail. (I had to travel on Friday and was calling while on the road). Finally I called 214-787-1570, the request line, and got through to Mr. SJ. I was asked to call him on the following Monday (10-12-09). Truthfully, I forgot. So, I called 214-787-1570 this afternoon and got through to Mr. SJ. I was told their boss didn't think there was enough interest, and that he didn't think taking a CHL holders information was a big deal because they weren't being denied entrance to the Fair after thay gave up the info. The topic being discussed when I called in this afternoon? Bike helmets. The topic being discussed last friday was BHO winning a Nobel Peace Prize. For basically nothing. I heard BHO won a Heisman Trophy today, he watched a football game Sunday afternoon.
Anyway, During my first conversation with the Program Dir. I had him log onto the Txchlforum and read the thread for himself. I then emailed JDW's program director not only the statutes for reference, but the response I got from Officer Duncan Friday morning. So, saying they don't have access to the information, or I wasn't more than willing to speak with them, or whatever....
ah,...............................
and I'm sure JDW would be willing to jump on the band wagon after the band starts playing....but ....the song will be over by then. They are not interested. It's OK. I harbor no ill will or feelings toward them. It just didn't work out. The Program Dir Mr. SJ was a really nice guy.
I do thank Killerfly128 and Joe817 for the efforts. Thanks guys. All we can do is keep trying. Maybe if KLIF has a open line Friday, a few folks from this site could call in a voice their opinions.

boomerang wrote:

Hos wrote:I wonder why there were no issues the first 1/2 of the fair and now they changed the rules on us? Guns will always be a "hot button" topic so even if there was 1 incident with someone leaving their gun on a ride it's 1 time too many

What if it was a cop? Are the gate clerks recording their info? How about celebrity or political bodyguards?

or how about the exhibitors or vendors.....are they all being wanded, their information being recorded everyday....this is taken from the 2009 State Fair of Texas "Guidelines for Exhibitors" (P.6 item 26.)

26. Exhibitors are strictly prohibited from carrying a weapon or firearm within Fair Park or within the
exhibit space, unless such person is licensed by the State of Texas to carry a concealed handgun
and complies with such laws. Unlicensed persons carrying a firearm onto Fair Park premises will
be subject to a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by up to 1 year in jail and a $4,000 fine.

Mithras61 wrote:I'm trying my best to believe that they are being honest with us, but I keep hearing this "in case something happens," and I can't figure out what they think might happen.

If it's a shooting incident, the LEOs will get your CHL info at that time. The Fair people having it won't be much use to the LEOs, and it is quite unlikely that a CHLer would be involved in a shooting and NOT stay until the LEOs arrive (if it's so likely as they seem to think, why hasn't it happened yet?).

If your gun falls out of your pocket, how are they going to identify it as yours (were they recording serial numbers as well? I bet not!).

So beyond those two things, what do they think might happen that having your name & info might be of use to them?

I think logic was absent when the minds (or mindless minions) that created the "policy" assembled.

keller999 wrote:My first post here -- registered just to sound off on this issue.

Went to the fair today (Oct 11) and showed my CHL to the wander who said outloud to his supervisor "CHL here." Now everyone knows. She asked me in a plain voice if I was carrying, which I confirmed (again, everyone knows). Was told to wait by the gate supervisor.

Told I needed to wait for "Sammy". After about 20 minutes, Sammy showed up and insisted on writing down my info. When I questioned this, he got extremely terse and basically told me to comply or leave. I questioned why my info was being taken, and was told the usual 'in case something happens', 'in case your gun falls out of your pocket', etc. Was told that the sheet was shredded at the end of the day. Sammy also indicated that they could take info because they were a private organization leasing the Fair Park land. I questioned why take the info at all, and Sammy made clear he was done talking. In hindsight, I should have refused, but I complied just to get the situation over with.

Note that NO Dallas LEO was involved in this process. Sounds like they still don't have their process down.

Also note that I went to the fair a week ago, and showed my CHL to the gatekeeper. They didn't even examine it, just waved me through.

Finally, have we narrowed down a list of who to contact on this issue? Sounds like some are unable to act, and others are responsive. Who should I send e-mails to in order to have my complaint heard?

Thanks for fighting the good fight, happy to help if I can, even to the point of making monetary donations. Has anyone had luck contacting the NRA on this?

-Keller

Still not discrete. No Leo? Nothing the Fair workers do surprizes me anymore. Right now, you have 2 choices. Let them take whatever information they desire from you and record it, or refuse to allow your rights to be abused and not attend. I chose the later. Call or contact Fair Management, Fair PR, your State rep, your State Sen, Fair Park Board members. Read the rest of the thread. You'll get plenty of ideas who to contact.

Fisherman74 wrote:The worst thing is that they get away with violating the privacy and rights of CHL Holders and once they get away with it, some other entity will decide they can get away with it also, and slowly over time rights begin to disappear. It is the old idea of taking something away or changing something so slowly that people get used to or accepting of something and when they realize it is gone, it is too late.

To me this a voilation of privacy and the way I read the laws that relate, it seems it is a voilation of the law. I don't see how you can make the collection of information a requirement for entry to a place a person has a right to be. Even if this was a different situation and you were to collect information on anything it would seem it would have to be across the board on everyone or none at all.

I will be watching this issue and how elected officials and vendors respond. My support will go to those that support the rights and privacy of law abiding citizens.

Regardless of wether you have a license or not, this seems to be a voilation of individual rights and privacy.

Ditto. Often called "slow erosion of rights" or Soft Tyranny. Happens very slow. Until it's too late.

sredish wrote:

suthdj wrote: Yes, But I would make this fight about privacy not discrimination of CHL holders. I think a large part of the population won't care if we cant carry at the state fair or anywhere for that matter however make it a privacy issue and it will concern a lot more people.

I agree. And the sad part is, complaining to the vendors and typical citizens will generally give them the opinion that we, as licensed carryers, are whiners as they feel there's no reason we need to carry in the first place. Comes back to the bubble they fail to see out of. Nonetheless, a right is a right and it must be maintained.

Here's my question, and it may be a stupid one... worst-case scenario, what would be the worst thing that could happen by them recording your information down? I'm not saying I'm okay with it or would even let them do it, but I'm trying to think of what could possibly happen in a worst-case?

Complaining to vendors is a good idea. I would imagine John Deere sells equipment to alot of farmers and ranchers. The farmers and ranchers I know, all own guns. About 1/3 of the ones I know have CHL's. Almost all are NRA members. For John Deere to support an organization that is anti-gun ..... might be likened to shooting ones self in the foot. Dairy industry? Same. Manufacturers pay attention to customer concerns. I'm not "whining". I'm also not complaining to typical citizens. I'm trying to express my concerns to the people that might actually be able to help correct the situation or exert influence. I will try to protect my rights.

worst case: ID theft. Yea, it happens everyday.
another worst case: the recorded information "somehow" gets to a reporter at the Dallas Morning Snooze.....they publish the info in the paper. CHL's have been outed in other states. That's why our legislators passed a ban on open records requests of CHL info.
another worst case: money. Is that a stretch? I don't know. Is a LEO involved in robbing a Walmart a stretch? Sell the list rather than destroy it.
another worst case: someone finds all the lists, that were SUPPOSED to be destroyed, containing your personal information, in a dumpster. Yea, that happens with medical records, the TX Dept of Human Services, loan companies etc. Could happen in this instance too.
My examples are taken straight from news stories.

suthdj wrote:

KD5NRH wrote:

suthdj wrote:Sadly we are a small percentage of the community and won't have much economic impact.

Chicago, IL (MMD Newswire) December 16, 2008 -- The Top 50 North American Fairs drew 40,670,657 guests in 2008, only a small decrease of 2% from 2007. The list was led once again by the State Fair of Texas with an estimated 2,024,000 visitors.

I think a reasonable percentage of visitors to the Fair that could be CHL holders = 20,240. I spent $150 in 2008 at the Fair. 20,240x$150=$3,036,000. I think losing $3,036,000 makes a economic impact. Even if only 1/2 of that figure (20,240 /2 =10,120)
fail to attend, based on $150 average per family, it's a loss of $1,518,000. Not chump change. Larger families could easily spend more. The CHL community could very easily make a financial impact if motivated.

Look at other, smaller percentages of the community that have gotten bigger changes simply by being heard - especially when they start making themselves heard at the polls.

I think it will be more effective, in this instance, to make yourself heard by your State Rep, city councilman (if a Dallas resident), Executive Board Members of the State Fair of Texas, State Fair vendors, State fair Management and Public Relations.

Yes, But I would make this fight about privacy not discrimination of CHL holders. I think a large part of the population won't care if we cant carry at the state fair or anywhere for that matter however make it a privacy issue and it will concern a lot more people.

This issue has more than one facet. Protection of privacy and obeying state law. I challenge them to post 30.06. They won't, because they can't, according to state law (at least the part of 30.06 they are willing to follow). The part they aren't following
refers to "property owned OR leased by a government ................" OR leased, means either the government leased the property from another, OR the government leased property to another. It's worded to include both situations.

PC 30.06 Trespass by Holder of License to Carry Concealed Handgun; (a) A license holder commits an offense if
the license holder:(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on
property of another without efective consent; and .................................................we know this part.....
(3) (e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited
from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035

Seems pretty clear to me I can carry at the Fair or any other public park. No other conditions or restrictions applied.
It means they can't post 30.06 because it's owned or leased by a government entity. To do so would supercede state law.

Sorry to jump in so late, but I had to be out of town yesterday. To say this topic has grown wings and is flying, would be an understatement. So many on point and relevant posts. I'd be quoting and posting the remainder of the evening if I tried to
respond to everything I've been reading. So, I'll try to hit a few items, do a quick update, and let someone else have the floor.

The meeting of attorneys on Thursday, was between Jeanette O'Shay (sp?) DPS CHL attorney, City of Dallas attorney (name unknown), and Robert Smith State Fair attorney. As I understand: It was their decision and conclusion that the State Fair (non profit corp) had the right to deny entrance to CHL holders. They can request any personal information they want, from any CHL holder. They can record or make a list of your personal information. They can't force you to provide the information, but they can deny you entrance into the Fair grounds if you fail to comply. I'm still not sure how a municipal park, can change into a "private entity", that sets it's own policies, that supercede state law, and then reverts back to a municipal park. In reading I find (on their own website bigtex.com / about us more)
that actually the time they control the Fair grounds is 60 days prior, 24 days during and 30 days after the actual State Fair. So, about 1/3 of the year it's not governed by state law (as they see it) regarding municipalities, parks leases etc.
I notice the bigtex.com website has changed their "can I bring" verbage:

...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrances. License holder's name will be made accessible to law enforcement officials. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.

They still aren't being entirely truthful. It should read " the License holders name and personal informatioin will be recorded", or State Fair ground entry will be denied.

As stated by others, verbal notice is sufficient to ban carry. As a common courtesy, I ask them to FULLY post the specifics of their policy. Saying a CHL is required to make their name "accessible " to law enforcement personnel is alot different than saying "we are requiring you to allow us to record, make a listing, or create a register of your personal information before entry to Fair grounds is allowed".

I would never have made the trip to Fair Park had I advanced knowledge of a policy of this nature. Others may freely give up their personal information to attend the State Fair. I don't think it's worth that. My opinion, yours may vary.

I don't like it. I don't agree with their decision. I think their interpretation of the law is in error. I think the intent of the law was to protect CHL holders from this type of abuse. (I won't bother to cite all the Codes, again).

Before I left town Friday, I personally called the Fair Park Police Office. I spoke with Officer Duncan. I asked the following questions regarding the "new", revised policy of DPD officers recording the CHL holders information.

1. Q: Will the individual officer's be responsible for destroying the information, or will there be a central location where all personal
information will be collected and then destroyed? And, who will oversee that operation?
A: "I'm not sure".
2. Q: Exactly what information will be required to be collected to allow a CHL holder entry into the Fair grounds?
A: "Your DL and your CHL".
3. Q: How does collecting CHL information contribute to the safety or security of Fair Park?
A: "because then we have your information".
Q: But how does having a CHL holders name on a list contribute to the safety or security of Fair Park?
A: veryyyyyyyyyyyy long pause....."because then we have your information if there is an incident". (??????????????)
I thanked her and hung up.

What I really, really, really don't understand..... how making a list or registry of the "good guys" makes anything
safer or improves security? I'll kick a dead horse one more time: if you don't want CHL holders to visit the Fair,
then post 30.06 signs. Period. Post it on your website: "The State Fair of Texas" is afraid of CHL holders because, CHL holders:
have submitted to being fingerprinted, have had extensive background checks, have undergone state mandated classes and range time, have not committed any domestic violence, any felonies any etc etc etc. We, State Fair officials, have decided to make a list of all lawfully carrying, law abiding, non felonious persons entering this property because we are afraid the CHL community will make trouble, be unable to retain possession of their weapons (seems prior CHL'ers have lost a bunch of guns in the past) or somehow cause the safety
and security of the State Fair of Texas to deminish in a substantial way.

One more time, thanks to all who have taken the time, made the effort, emailed or contacted any of the parties involved, or who might be able to help this issue be resolved. Dragonfighter, I'm glad you're not with the opposition, good to have you on board. Steve R., as always, you provide excellent insight from more than one view point as well as knowledge from the LEO POV. To those that have PM'd me contact info to different involved parties or given me "heads up". Thanks. You know who you are.
I will be contacting Sen. John Corona this coming week. The board members for the State Fair of Texas are posted on their website.
I believe contacting some of them may be in order. We can wait for legislation................................or.................do
something.

Sorry this post rambles.

I believe there's a good chance Jon David Wells may be commenting on this very topic this afternoon.
KLIF 570.