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drjoker wrote:

punkndisorderly wrote: I think the vast majority of people buy them and don't train with them at all. They may run a box of rounds through it once a year to make sure it still works, but that's about it. I hardly ever see people with the pocket 380's or snubbies at the range which consistantly surprises me given the number of them sold now.

Yeah, you're right about that. Most people who are not gun enthusiasts like us will buy the smallest, lightest, most concealable gun they can get. Poor people will buy whatever they can afford and with the price of ammo these days, what they can afford to shoot would be a 22lr. In other words, most people will practice with a 22lr or buy a 380 and practice once or twice a year with it, at the most.

I have my suspicions that many of even the gun enthusiasts are doing much the same. They may shoot their full size pistols fairly freqently and even do competitions, but I would say the majority that choose to carry pocket pistols, be they snubbie's or pocket 380's, very rarely practice with them either in terms of live fire at the range or in terms of drawing, reloading, and rehostering (or repocketing as the case may be).

A gun is not a magic talisman. If you have to draw, doing so from a pocket is more difficult than from a holster, espcially given the small grips of most pocket pistols. Doubly so if a pocket holster isn't used and the pistol has come to rest in the pocket at an odd angle.

Once you draw, the bad guy may decide that he wants to go elsewhere. But if it comes to where the point where the trigger needs to be pulled, again that pocket 380 is going to put you at a disadvantage. Many advocates of the 380 are quick to point out it's all about shot placement. There's something to be said for that. But putting those rounds on target in a pistol the user practices with rarely, while under stress, and with a pistol that is more difficult to shoot accurately form the start (back to generally poor sights, most with no night sights, short sight radius, stiff triggers, and less than ideal grips) will be more difficult. On top of all of that, you still have a round that is putting you at a disadvantage, however slight, when compared to 9mm, .40, .357sig, .45acp, 10mm, 44 special, etc.

And, lastly, if those rounds don't do the trick, or there are more baddies around, you have reloading, again under stress and with a handgun that the user isn't intimately familiar with. Worse, many of the people that suscribe to the "have a gun, any gun" philosophy also aren't going to carry a spare magazine or speedloader.

I think the majority of these can be satisfactorily overcome if someone is dedicated enough to train to minimize it. However, I think the majority of people who are, also tend to be dedicated enough to carry something larger anyway.

Yes, in many instances, merely going for a gun may disuade the attacker, pointing a gun at the attacker also may disuade him, and six rounds of .380 out of a very short barrel, with good shot placement may be all you need to end the deadly threat. However, the fewer "mays" the better in my book. Again, if that's all you are willing to carry, I would much rather you have that 380 or 22 or pepper spray or slinghshot or swiss army knife than nothing. But, I'd encourage you to move at least a little up the size and caliber food chain.

While I agree that a .380 (or 22 for that matter) is better than no gun at all or a gun left at home where it does you no good, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be discouraged. If that's all someone is willing or able to carry, then that's what they should carry. But, in the event they actually need to use their firearm, I still think most people would be much better served by a subcompact or compact in 9mm or larger in a good quality holster on a good quality belt.

I spent four hours yesterday helping a buddy move in the 95+ heat yesterday. Was carrying my Glock 26 in a summer special holster and galco gun belt while wearing cargo shorts and an untucked polo. It never felt uncomfortable.

I'll use an analogy. If a young man or woman came up to me and said they're thinking of going back to school to get a college degree and were going to go to a Junior College for a liberal arts degree, I would try to steer them to one of the vocational programs at a minimum and really try to push them towards a four year degree that's currently in demand like accounting. If the liberal arts degree is all they are willing or able to do, I'd agree that it was better than no degree (much like a 380 is better than no gun), but they're investing a lot of faith into a degree that probably won't get them where they want to go (much like investing faith into a 380 may not do what they need it to against a determined or deranged attacker). Yes, the liberal arts degree is likely easier, less expensive, and more convenient (much as carrying a pocket 380 as compared to a larger pistol), but a four year degree in accounting, while more difficult to obtain, will be much more beneficial when you actually have to put the degree to work (much as a larger caliber gun will be more effective).

One thing that kind of bothers me about 380's and snubbies is that, while they are probably the biggest sellers as far as concealed carry guns go, I think the vast majority of people buy them and don't train with them at all. They may run a box of rounds through it once a year to make sure it still works, but that's about it. I hardly ever see people with the pocket 380's or snubbies at the range which consistantly surprises me given the number of them sold now.

I don't think that the 380 should be discouraged outright, but I do thing the vast majority of people would be better served by other pistols in other calibers. It's not as much the caliber itself that I object to as it is the pistols that it tends to be chambered in. My arguements are much the same against 38 snubbies.

A defensive pistol has to be reliable. That's probably my number one requirement. I beleive it was American Rifleman magazine that tested several 380's a littl over a year ago. All of the one's they tested had multiple failures in the time they were tested with one exception. If I remember it was the Rohrbaugh which, because of it's $1,200+ price isn't likely to be at the top of most people's list. This was in the course of 100 rounds per pistol. The writer chalked it up to all the pistols needing more break in time. This means you have to shoot it...

Most people don't like shooting 380's or snubbies. They're fun to carry, but not to shoot. Generally (though there are exceptions) the sights stink, the grips are tiny, the trigger pull is difficult, the magazines are small which means having to reload the magazines frequently, and the recoil isn't pleasant in tiny guns with poor grips. Not only are they not fun to shoot, they are difficult to shoot well for the same reasons. I rarely see them at the range and when I do, people usually shoot 20 rounds or so, then move on to their full size guns or leave. I'm sure some of the people that carry 380's and snubbies practice with them a lot and are very profficient with them. I think that they're in the minority. So, while they're great to carry, most people are unlikely to shoot them enough to be good with them. (I'm amazed at how poor the average shooter is at the ranges I've been to, and that's usually with full size guns with better triggers, better sigts, longer sight radius, etc). I think you should practice with your carry gun at least as often as you shoot your safe queens and range toys and in my observation, few do so with 380's and snubbies.

Somewhat related to my observation that most people aren't committed enough to shoot the 380's and snubbies a lot: in order to ensure that your pistol is reliable, I think a minimum of 100 and more likely 200 rounds of whatever your chosen carry ammo is should be run through it without problems. If the gun is no fun to shoot, what are the chances that the average shooter is going to do this. I suspect the majority of 380's and snubbies sold don't have 200 rounds through them in total, let alone of high dollar hollowpoints.

So, if you're willing to practice with it enough to become proficient with it and remain proficient, and any pistol that is larger is likely to be left at home, then rock that 380. If, like most people, you will buy it, run a hundred rounds of ball ammo through it, pick up a box of cor-bon's, and shoot it once a year just to make sure it still works, you're not doing youselves any favors.

One caveat to this is the larger 380's like the Beretta's and Bersa's. They are large and heavy enough to be a different animal. I don't really put them in the same class as a lcp, keltech, or aluminum framed snubbie.