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The situation chosen is a perfect example of one where the situation isnt safe enough to permit care. There are other situations where you or I might judge it safe each is different.

As to the care or lack thereof, that was over 10 yrs ago in a jurisditiction in which I have little knowledge of. With the current emphasis on active shooter mitigation many agencies are training their medics in care under fire and equipping their personnel with the appropriate equipment to do so. That being said there were multiple officers down at that incident with serious injuries and I can tell you that if there are two people with serious injuries and one is a police officer or firefighter they will be treated first right wrong or indifferent so there is a good chance the outcome would be the same even now days due to lack of personnel.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

ninjamedic2293 wrote:3 - If a perp is bleeding out from an extremity wound I am going to do what I can to stop the bleeding. If you carry a firearm you need to carry a tourniquet end of story. Discharging your weapon to stop an imminent threat is completely justified. Not attempting to stop an arterial bleed (when you can safely attempt to control the bleeding) when you have the training and knowledge that failure to do so will kill that person is murder. Perhaps not legally im not sure but definitely morally. If someone's actions require me to respond with deadly force to stop that threat then I am fully prepared to take a life to do so and have no qualms about it. That being said I am not going to purposely kill someone through my actions or inactions when it it possible to avoid that.

Dead, dead, WRONG! I have 6 years of experience working in an ER and have treated hundreds of gunshot patients, and that moral requirement of yours is dangerous, even for a guy like me who has some experience in this area. If I have to shoot somebody, and that person is bleeding out, I am under absolutely no moral compulsion to place myself back into danger by getting close enough to a dangerous attacker to place a tourniquet or cover a sucking chest wound. No Sir. You call the pros — LEOs and EMS — and you let them do their jobs. Period. It is not about vengeance or anything like that. It is about keeping yourself alive and safe, which is why you shot them in the first place.

I will do everything I can to avoid having to shoot someone, including modifying my own natural behavior, eating words I might otherwise speak, being willing to back down from a confrontation, and choosing to avoid going to places that I might otherwise enjoy going to. I am not a naturally violent person. IF I pull the trigger on another human, it is a means of last resort; and IF an attacker presses the attack and shooting them is my last resort, then I owe the gunshot person nothing more than to dial 911 and ask for an ambulance to be sent, in the same phone call I make to report the shooting. That is ALL I owe them, and I am NOT a murderer, and I refuse to accept that label from anyone who thinks that I have a duty to preserve the life of the person I just shot — even if doing so places me back under the same risk of injury that forced me to shoot them in the first place. With all due respect, that would be just irresponsible. I have a wife and son who expect me to come home at night, and my responsibility to them outweighs my responsibility to my assailant a thousand times over. End of story. If a human predator dies of a gunshot wound, the moral responsibility for his death falls squarely on him, and him alone, for making the choice to be a predator.

Sometimes the hyena attacks the water buffalo and the hyena gets killed. Too bad for the hyena.

Thats an awful lot of black and white. Perhaps working in an urban environment on the streets my threat and risk analysis leads me to different conclusions than yours. I did specify in my post that I would attempt to help that person "when you can safely attempt to." I carry a tourniquet at all times as I operate under the assumption that if I am forced to discharge my weapon it is highly likely that I will be injured as well, and it would be no consolation to my family that I killed the perp also if I die from a femoral artery transection. Thus I feel that I have a moral obligation, (if it doesn't require me to place myself in grave danger as I too have a responsibility to come home to my family) to attempt to stop that person from dying from a preventable cause. If you feel no moral obligation to do so then thats your business I wont judge you, this is why there is a difference between morals and legalities. I am not labeling you, I am telling you that when I look in the mirror at night I have moral obligations to myself. And I am certainly not a passivist nor hesitant to use deadly force but all the same I am not going to knowingly let someone die when I can reasonably prevent it. To me (again assuming you feel safe and obviously we all have different opinions of what that means) watching someone exsanguinate from an arterial bleed when you have the means to stop it is the same thing as placing another round into that persons head while they lie there. Inaction can produce the same outcome as action. I dont expect you feel that way, its between you and god.

davidtx wrote:

ninjamedic2293 wrote:[BIG SNIP]
Always carry a firearm and always carry a tourniquet, many fit nicely into a magazine holder.

Was that advice directed at paramedics or at all of us?

I carry the tourniquet for me (although I wouldn't hesitate to use it for someone else) and encourage others to do the same. It is very likely that if you are forced to discharge your weapon you might be injured as well. The wound will either be severe enough to need a tourniquet or you will be able to wait for EMS to bandage it otherwise. That and covering a sucking chest wound (which can be done without any equipment) are realistically the only important lifesaving measures that will make a difference for a GSW victim short of a trauma surgeon.




I dont think anyone needs to be concerned about losing any sort of medical license following a shooting unless you are convicted of a crime. My actions are based on my opinions of what is right or wrong for me to do assuming I am comfortable that I will meet my obligation to come home to my family at the end of the night. My threat and risk analysis will probably be very skewed from most peoples from working a busy urban ems system where I can have no weapons for protection. And contrary to dicion's opinion of how we operate, we do not (at my agency) routinely wait for the police department or sheriffs department to secure a scene unless there is some extenuating circumstances.

1 - Unless someone arrests from hypoxia secondary to a traumatic event CPR will have 0 effect on them. So if they are positioned in such a way as to compromise their airway then repositioning them and performing chest compressions could help. You have evidenced based medicine to back that decision up with the TDSHS. A traumatic arrest is a dead person, they dont come back.

2 - Unless you carry some form of barrier device to protect you TDSHS will have no issue with you not placing yourself in jeopardy of contracting a communicable disease.

3 - If a perp is bleeding out from an extremity wound I am going to do what I can to stop the bleeding. If you carry a firearm you need to carry a tourniquet end of story. Discharging your weapon to stop an imminent threat is completely justified. Not attempting to stop an arterial bleed (when you can safely attempt to control the bleeding) when you have the training and knowledge that failure to do so will kill that person is murder. Perhaps not legally im not sure but definitely morally. If someone's actions require me to respond with deadly force to stop that threat then I am fully prepared to take a life to do so and have no qualms about it. That being said I am not going to purposely kill someone through my actions or inactions when it it possible to avoid that.

4 - Same thing goes for a sucking chest wound, if safe to do so I will cover the wound with a hand (gloved preferably).

Those are the only medical interventions that it is reasonable to assume that you will have the time, capability, and equipment to perform after a shooting. Always carry a firearm and always carry a tourniquet, many fit nicely into a magazine holder.