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Dragonfighter wrote:Excalibur,

Very thoughtful, but here is where knowing all the details makes all the difference. The side door in question is a practically useless entry/exit due to the recliner situated in front of it so his coming through there is not likely...we have other exits. While he is concentrating on that door he is blind to the other potals and illuminated by area lights. The wife also armed and maintained control of the interior while on the phone with police advising them where I was with description and advising the dispatcher that I would disarm once I saw that he had us both covered.

I know every nook and cranny of my wooded lot and also understand that rinky dink house would not stand a whole lot of assault. Tactics and SA have also been part of my entire adult life (I won't bore you with details) and there IS an advantage to concealment and cover open air rather than hunkering down in some circumstances. The layout of the house would place the BG between me and the kids in two of the three entries. No, I'm not going to wait for the fight to come inside...especially if there is more than one.

Added in Edit: By the time the police had arrived he was seated, cross legged with fingers interlocked at the back of his head.

Thanks for providing the additional detail. As usual, there was a lot more to the story and it's another reminder that no single strategy or tactic is applicable in all circumstances. The course of action you chose worked out well for you, and by definition, since it got the result you intended, it was an effective way to manage that situation at that time.

As always, I think it's productive to think through events that happen to others and consider how we would handle them if they happened to us. This gives us an internal "library" of plans that can be called upon quickly instead of trying to figure out a novel solution under the pressure of a fast breaking incident.

My concern in planning for a similar situation is that, by going outside, I would be exposed to attack from additional individuals I didn't see in time, or that an intoxicated individual (who could turn out to be a neighbor's teenager who got drunk for the first time) would lunge at me when challenged and force me to make a deadly force call instead of seeing the wisdom of surrender as the offender in your instance did. Situations like that happen a lot, and, although a deadly force response might be legally justified in the situation after I had chosen to put myself in that position, it might well not be necessary if I stay inside to protect what's really important and let the PD manage the outside issues.

If I can confidently protect my family inside and the bad guy stays outside until the police respond, I see that as a no lose. If he does something stupid with them outside, he's their problem, not mine, and they've got immunities and legal protections that I don't. If he makes entry before that, especially if he couldn't quickly get past an obstacle at the door, he would be in a tactical and legal position that I see as much easier to manage with a lot fewer questions and much less risk of legal issues and costs.

Your mileage may vary.

srothstein wrote:The Engineer,

Beanbag rounds are easily purchased by almost anyone. Most good gun shops can get them for you to fit a standard 12 gauge shotgun. Here is one mail order supplier for you (note they are expensive this way).

BUT, you need to understand that at close ranges, even these rounds tend to be lethal. There are minimum distances you can use them at where they have had time to bleed off some of the velocity.

Even more importantly, even a beanbag round is a shot from a firearm. The law defines firearms as deadly force, so you would need the exact same justification to use them as a regular round.

As a result of the above, I don't recommend this for non-law enforcement specialty situations. I can see several reasons why you might want them, but I would be afraid the subconscious thinking of less or non-lethal might make me to quick to shoot. And if I did NEED to shoot, I would want real rounds for the obvious reasons.

If you face a situation where deadly force is the only reasonable way to protect yourself or others, it would be wise to be prepared to use the full measure of deadly force.

If you have a situation that doesn't rise to that level, you could consider less lethal options like tasers or OC projection tools like the one from Kimber. These are not currently classified as deadly force tools in Texas, but keep in mind that these and others like them are specialized devices that have their own significant downsides that cause them to either not work well enough or to work too well and cause serious injury or death. I see these devices as more useful in public settings where a threat justifying use of force may be present, but a deadly force situation is not.

Also bear in mind that, if you're being attacked in your home, the realities of time and distance are such that you almost certainly won't have the opportunity to run through a bunch of escalating options and recover from one and use another if the first one you try doesn't work.

Dragonfighter wrote:

Look, there is legal, justified and necessary. I used to keep a BUG in the vehicles in case I forgot and left my primary at the house. I struggled with the idea that if someone broke in or was stealing my vehicle I would have to shoot to prevent them becoming armed. I struggled with it until I decided it was simpler to always remember arming when leaving the house. I would not shoot over loss of a vehicle, lawn mower or whatever...that is MY decision based on what I think is morally justifiable. I have enough problems with my conscience without dropping someone for stealing.

As to going outside we had someone trying to bang in the side door to our house one Sunday morning. I armed and went out and apprehended him until the police came (the cop told him he was lucky he wasn't shot because he would've). I got a good sight picture on him before the challenge and though he was initially froggy once he turned and saw his imminent destruction he became exceptionally cooperative. He was drunk and stoned as well.

My points are these:

• It is NECESSARY to shoot to defend yourself, your family.
• It is justifiable to defend a third party .
• It is legal to shoot someone stealing at night but I have to ask myself if it is necessary or even justifiable from a conscientious POV.
• If someone is outside banging on one of my doors, breaking into the house, garage or car, you can bet I'm going out and either run them off, apprehend or defend myself. My reasoning being I don't know what their ultimate goal is and the last thing I want is to bring the fight inside with my family.
• If I am looking at someone's back and diminishing aspect in my sight picture, the fight's over.

There are risks with what the OP did but his actions, self control and outcome demonstrate good execution if not particularly great planning IMHO. Again, if someone is going through my stuff I don't know what their up to, I'm going to mitigate the situation. If someone is in an altered state of mind, there is no predicting what and where their next move will be. Waiting and watching could very well allow the fight to come to the house, or a better tactical advantage for the BG and I am not prepared to let that happen.

Well, Dragonfighter, I'm with you on 4 out of your 5 points. Number 4 is the sticky one.

As I see it, the tactical advantage is with you only as long as you remain inside the house as the defender in a secured building. You give that up as soon as you step outside into a 360 degree threat environment with an unknown number of opponents who may be in places you can't readily see under low light conditions.

There are so many ways that can get ugly, I won't even attempt to list them all.

In the situation you described, unless you plan on opening the door he's banging on, by going out another door you create a situation where the BG may breach the door he's at and make entry to your home (with direct access to your family) while you're trying to come around the house from another door. Now he's got the tactical advantage of being inside a building with only a couple of practical access points that you'd have to use to try to stop him from harming your family. Those doorways aren't called "fatal funnels" in police training for nothing. To top it off, your family will find him between itself and you. Are you prepared to manage that set of circumstances?

By going outside with police responding, you also greatly increase the risk that you will be the first shadowy figure they see, and once they see what looks like a gun, your day will go rapidly downhill while the bad guy has a great opportunity to take advantage of the distraction to either flee or take hostages.

While outside, you also run the risk that a neighbor whose dog wakes him up will see a shadowy figure prowling around your yard and go out with his own gun to be a good neighbor. This really gets interesting when the police pull up with you, the neighbor, and the bad guy all outside. Good luck convincing the responding officers you're the good guy before you eat gravel.

If you stay inside and the BG breaks in, you have an enormous tactical advantage due to your knowledge of the layout,your opportunity to select cover with an appropriate field of fire, and your ability to use light control to your benefit. You can make certain your family is in an area that would remain safe if you have to engage the intruder, and if he does break in, you've got a very clean legal justification for use of deadly force with greatly reduced chances of misidentification by police or neighbors. There are no downsides here.

In my view it's way better to stay inside in this situation. Unlike some other scenarios where a bad guy may attempt to steal very valuable equipment in a rural area where police response is a long way off and your action is the only possible way to stop a successful major theft, I can't think of a circumstance where going outside alone to apprehend someone who appears to be either possibly committing a minor theft or trying to breach a perimeter door would be a better idea than remaining inside while police handle the outside and you defend the most important asset - your family.