Search found 3 matches

by The Annoyed Man
Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:22 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare
Replies: 31
Views: 6174

Re: ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare

Teamless wrote:TAM,
You always post so eloquently, but (for me and I think many others) the issue is not that they had a recall.
Heck if they didn't have a recall ever, they just aren't trying hard enough to innovate.

My issues is that they came out, saying how to tell when the weapon was fixed, and saying it should be about 30 days.
My XDS has been in there hands going on 3 weeks now and as of yet, they are not sure of what the fix is, and once they do, was mine the first to arrive (doubtful), was it the 5,000th? could be, and how long will it take to fix 5,000 of them?
Teamless, I get your point, and yes, it could have be handled in a less clumsy manner. In "The Other XDS Recall" thread, someone recently posted a reply from the CEO of SA, responding to the criticism about turnaround time. His answer was essentially: "We know this has inconvenienced customers, but at the time, we really did expect a 30 day turnaround. At this time, we have come up with a promising fix and we are testing to destruction to make sure that it will be the right thing to do to our customer guns."

So, it doesn't sound to me like they are being deliberate jackwagons. I think that they thought they had a fix, and they thought it would take 30 days to turn the guns around, and then somebody did some more testing and said "Nope! This ain't gonna work. Back to the drawing board." And they had to try something else.

Consider the liability issue too...... I am far from the only XDS owner who is withholding sending his gun back until this Polish fire drill is sorted out. If they had publicly said, "your gun's no good. Don't carry it. Just hang onto it until we tell you to send it back in," a LOT of people would have held onto their guns and not sent them in, and then SA would be risking that some (or all) of those guns still out there were ticking liability time-bombs. So somewhere in there they had to balance the need to be risk-averse to protect the business, with the need to look after their customers' repairs and interests.

In hindsight, could some things have been managed better? Yes, probably. On the other hand, it could also have been managed worse. Personally, I think the XDS, in either caliber, is destined to be a classic. It is a great little gun. One thing is for certain, given that the .45s were prone to this issue (and presumably the 9mm's too), it's a darn good thing that they haven't released the harder kicking .40 S&W version yet, without the "upgrade" included.
by The Annoyed Man
Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:37 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare
Replies: 31
Views: 6174

Re: ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare

I have had three other Springfield products and purchased a 4th as a gift for someone else, and this is the first time I've run into a QC issue for one of their products for which an answer was not immediately available. Those 4 products are:
  1. My first ever Springfield product, a 1911-A1 "Loaded" model which I bought used from another forum member. It is a well-made piece of kit and has been utterly reliable. The only issue I've had with it is that I shoot with a "2 thumbs pointing forward" grip, and being left handed, my weak-side thumb sometimes presses inadvertently against the right end of the slide-stop pin, pushing the pin out to the left, jamming the gun. It doesn't happen every time, but it happens. I plan to address this by changing out the slide stop and having a bevel put around the end of the pin so that my thumb won't contact it. In all fairness, this is not a Springfield issue. This is a "1911-A1 in the hands of a left-handed shooter who uses a 'thumbs forward' grip" issue, and it has happened with my 1943 Ithaca 1911-A1 GI issue gun too.
  2. My old Springfield M1A "Loaded" model. 100 rounds in, it broke off a hammer foot. I was pretty steamed about it. (Original post about it HERE.) Others (here on this forum) assured me that SA's customer service was first rate and that I was unreasonable for being steamed about it. At first, I was skeptical, but in the end they MORE than proved themselves. You can read the details on my original post, but suffice it to say that they supplied me with a replacement fire control group consisting of a GI forged hammer (a more expensive part) to replace the OEM MIM hammer, and they did so at no extra charge and had the parts back to me in about 7-8 days. That was outstanding service.
  3. A second M1A "Loaded" model which I bought as a Christmas present for my son a few years ago.
  4. A XD(M)-45 Compact 3.8 which has been flawlessly problem-free from day one. That gun came with a right-handed holster, and I am left-handed. After suggesting to Springfield that they are screwing left-handers on price by not making a holster available for them, they sent me a free left-handed paddle holster just like the one they include in the kit for right-handers. That is outstanding customer service.
  5. My XDS-45, which has also been problem-free for me, the recall notwithstanding.
I have not sent my XDS in yet for two reasons:
  1. I'm unwilling to sent it in until a solution has been tested and implemented.
  2. Springfield has manufactured something on the order of a 38,700 of these pistols in 9mm, and 186,000 in .45 ACP, and a small handful of that total of 225,000 pistols have not functioned the way they are supposed to. Oh well. I've had perfectly sound AR15s experience a slam-fire. Has anyone forgotten that Smith & Wesson also recalled the M&P Shield? Does anyone remember when Taurus recalled 98,000 of their 24/7 DS pistols? You think the Springfield recall is a rare thing in the gun world? Read it and weep: http://130.94.182.159/recalls.htm
The probability that there is something wrong with MY gun is statistically very small. Against that probability, I am willing to send it in, but not before I know what they are going to do with it, or how long it will take. In the meantime, I actually have confidence in the gun. Some may call me crazy, but there it is. I'm not worried. If that was what I had available at a given moment to defend myself, I'd use it without hesitation......and with confidence.

I listened to an on-air explanation of what they are going through from the Co-CEO of Springfield (CLICK HERE) originally posted on this forum by someone else, and it helped to clarify some things for me. The CEO acknowledges the inconvenience and uncertainty that their "upgrade/recall" is creating in their customers' minds, and they are sincerely apologetic. When pressed by the interviewer as to why they did not come up with a fix before issuing the recall notice, like other manufacturers do, here is essentially what his answer was (paraphrased).....you can confirm the intent of the content by listening to the recording..... "We are a family owned business, and we like to think of our customers as being part of the Springfield family. We wanted to get ahead of this thing and get rolling on getting the guns back as soon as possible because we would feel terrible if one of our guns malfunctioned and caused injury to someone because of it. We understand that this severely inconveniences many of our customers, and we are genuinely sorry for that. But we felt that this was the safer and more responsible way to handle it."

In that last part, he is basically right. Which is more responsible: 1) try to get the guns back before someone gets hurt, or 2) leave the guns out there until they get the solution figured out, risking someone getting hurt?

They are between a rock and a hard spot. Springfield has a reputation for manufacturing quality products. Their 1911s are some of the best of the mass-produced examples of that pattern you can buy. the M1A is a quality rifle. The XD and XD(M) pistols are simply superb. Presumably, they tested and retested the XDS prototypes to the same standards that they did the larger pistols before bringing them to market. With all the liabilities associated with gun manufacturing, only an idiot would believe that Springfield would knowingly bring a defective product to market—and in practical application, they did not knowingly do that. The XDS, despite the recall, is a head and shoulders better pocket pistol than any of its competitors in that the category of "pocket cannons." And it has run into a glitch.

If you are never going to buy another Springfield product because of this recall, then you had better ALSO never buy any of the following brands, for the exact same reason:
  • Berreta, Tikka, Sako ALL * NEOS
  • Blaser R93
  • BSA Imports Model 200
  • CARACAL International Model C
  • Bushmaster ACR Rifle
  • Century International Arms Galil and/or Golani Semi-Auto Sporter rifles
  • Colt Light Rifle * Pistols (several models)
  • Connecticut Valley Arms rifles made 1995-96
  • European American Armory (EAA) Witness
  • Galil or Golani - see Century International Arms
  • Glock several pistols * Gen4
  • Heckler & Koch USC/UMP
  • Howa 1500, 1550 and 1700LS
  • Howa 1500SS (Stainless Steel)
  • Kel-Tec PMR-30
  • Knight Rifles Revolution/Revolution II
  • Marvel Precision 1911 .22LR Conversions
  • Mossberg 695
  • NAA (North American Arms) Mini-revolvers
  • Norinco NDM86 .308 Dragunov
  • Remington Model 700 and others * 710 * 597 in .17HMR * VersaMax
  • Saka - see Berreta
  • Seecamp .32ACP pistol
  • Smith & Wesson SW 1911 * 460XVR * T/C ICON®, Venture™ and Dimension® * 22A * i-Bolt#1 * i-Bolt#2 * Model 329 * all M&P Shield
  • Springfield Armory 3.3 XD-S 9mm and .45ACP
  • Sturm, Ruger & Co. P85 * M-77 * Bearcat Convertible * LCP * SR9
  • Tanfoglio EAA Witness
  • Thompson/Center (T/C) - see Smith & Wesson
  • Tikka - see Berreta
  • Vektor CP 1/CP 1N
  • Walther PPK and PPK/S (by S&W)
  • Walther PK380
  • Weatherby Vanguard® Stainless Steel Rifle
There are a lot of very popular guns on that list, including some like the mighty, invincible, GLOCK ( :shock: say it ain't so!), that nobody better ever buy again if this is to be the standard by which we make these kinds of decisions. I just highlighted a few of them in Red just because they are popular models, but the others are not exactly wallflowers either. Heck, I own a couple of them too.

I understand people being upset about Springfield's way of handling this thing, but honestly, I'm not sure what they should have done differently. After my XDS has been serviced, I'm not going to let that stop me from buying anymore Springfield products.
by The Annoyed Man
Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:11 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare
Replies: 31
Views: 6174

Re: ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare

schufflerbot wrote:It's official, I'm done with the springfield XDs. I called today, SA has had mine for 33 days now and I was curious as to when I can expect it back. The girl on the line advised that they have yet to solidify a solution to the problem.

:shock:

So I asked about expected timeline and she said she could not estimate. I finally got her to admit that it could be 6 months to a year before I get it back.

I am talking with SA management about a refund and will most likely be going with the Sig Sauer Carry Nightmare.

Does anyone have any experience with this particular weapon?

thanks!
Glad I've held off on sending mine back just yet.

Return to “ditching the XDs45, looking at the Sig Carry Nightmare”