TexasCHLforum.com

buckaroo815 wrote:

stealthfightrf17 wrote:What is a BG? I see people using that term.

An abbreviation for "Bad Guy."

rm9792 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Keith B wrote:.

. But the loss of whatever was in my wallet would have to be particularly ruinous to me to make me believe that shooting him in the back as he walked away would be worth it. That loss would have to outweigh the almost certain loss to me in legal defense fees, and it is pretty much certain that there is nothing in my wallet that is worth $50K or more......not to mention the possibility of incarceration.
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One thing you keep forgetting in your evaluation of the wallet. It has your address in it. It has your identity in it. What is of value in the wallet is your wifes safety, your kids safety, your homes sanctity, your identity which takes years to recover from and usually well over your $50k limit to get cleared up. Yes, my wallet is of more value to me than a street thug who has no care of his own life. He chooses to take the chance and at some point he will roll craps. My $12 wallet is of great value to me. The implicit value is much much greater than the explicit value contained therein.

No, I did not forget, and I am certain that I previously explained why. I carry my TDL, CHL, Debit Cards, and my business cards in a little folding ID holder which stays in my shirt pocket. My hip pocket wallet does not have anything in it with my identity or address or anything in it.....other than my name on my Costco card. It certainly doesn't contain anything worth killing someone over. Trust me. I do know what is in it. I'm completely happy to use it as a throw down wallet. And, maybe while the BG is stooping over to pick it up, I can kick him in the teeth, or hit him with a chair, or get my own gun deployed, or run, or whatever.

What skiprr said. I took his seminar on this subject at the PSC forum day. When I wrote "create distance" in my previous post, I was actually visualizing and thinking of what he taught us that day, which primarily consisted of moving forward at about a 45º angle, getting the gun deployed while doing so, firing from retention if necessary. I should have stated that part about getting the angle. And the movement doesn't have to be forward. A backward angle may not be as desirable, but if that is the allotted space you have to work with, then that's what you use. Either way, it gets you off of X where the BG last saw you.

This type of movement by the way came absolutely naturally to me as it was entirely consistent with everything I ever learned in several years of martial arts classes. It even puts you in a better position to strike a blow with your hands, elbows, knees or feet. And it does interrupt his OODA loop because you are no longer where he expects to find you.

Thanks skiprr for the cognitive reminder.

The best possible outcome is to not have to shoot someone. Until he fires back at you, or turns back and resumes the attack, shooting him is a judgement call on your part, but it may be poor judgement. Carrying a gun doesn't license you to take people out just because they are bad and they are a potential threat to you. I just think that it would be difficult to convince a GJ or judge or jury that the criminal who robbed you and is now retreating away from you presents anything more than a potential threat. I'm not saying he's NOT more than a potential threat, but it isn't your opinion or mine that counts. It's the opinion of the finders of fact that counts.

barstoolguru wrote:If a man robs me with a weapon of any kind I see him as a threat as long as he is in sight so am going to defend myself until I feel safe

There was a case in FL of a man that got robbed and shot the man in the back as he turned and he was a NO BILL and yes I tried to look for a link but with that cafe shooting it’s hard to find

So how far away then does he have to be for you to not back-shoot him? 100 feet? 45 feet? 10 feet? Across the street? Down the block? He's still in sight at all of those distances. Where do you draw the line? Because at some point it does become murder, whether or not you want to see it that way.

The correct response is, if at all possible: create space (in which to safely draw the gun) >> on your way to the new position, which may be only a few feet, prepare to defend yourself (with the drawn gun) >> defend yourself with the drawn gun (if necessary). Note that "gun" appears in parentheses in the first two steps, and "if necessary" appears in parentheses in the third step because the third step assumes the gun, whereas the first two steps assume creating space and preparation. The reason this is the correct sequence is because, in the OP's scenario, you were surprised by someone who got inside your guard, got the drop on you, and demanded your wallet. He disrupted your OODA loop because you were not living in Condition Yellow at the time. He should have never been able to get that close to you before you had an opportunity to get yourself out of the situation before it developed.

However, that HAS happened, and we now need to fix it. Therefore, the correct reaction is to remedy the situation by first getting yourself out of harms way as much as is possible. That increases your ability to react while decreasing his ability to bring you harm. On your way to the position which opens up the space between you, you get your own gun drawn. Assuming he does anything except walk/run away with his back to you, then you shoot him. But if he does nothing but run/walk away, you're going to have a very hard time defending yourself in court. It may not be impossible, but it will be difficult AND costly. Right at the moment, I have about $185 in my wallet, a BassPro card, my AAA card, my Costco card, and a slip of paper with my DPC membership access number to the security gate at the gun club..............which he is welcome to try and rob if he's stupid enough. Not one bit of that is worth the tens of thousands of dollars it will cost me just to be no-billed.

Now, I will in all likelihood not have any kind of crisis of conscience if I kill another person in self-defense. But even an armed man running away from me is not enough threat to shoot him in the back from 20 feet away. He will need to be actually turning back toward me with his gun in his hand, or shooting over his shoulder at me, or something, to make me believe that I need to shoot this guy.....because my little 'ol wallet with a few trifling items in it isn't of enough consequence to justify killing him. I can cancel the cards and let the gun club know my gate combination has been compromised. I keep my ID, CHL, AND my personal and business debit cards in a separate ID holder in my shirt pocket, so nothing in that wallet I throw down has my address on it. And even if it did, I have a 60 pound dog at home who would like nothing better than eating my friends. My enemies are like candy to him. Then there's the two safes full of guns, and my gun-toting wife.

He doesn't want to PO my wife. Heck, I've been married to her for 24 years, and I'm scared to death of her when she's properly ticked off.......and stuff like this really ticks her off.

So again, where do you draw the line?

WildBill wrote:Creating distance while engaging the BG was an exercise that we practiced and practiced during the "tactics" classes that I took. This tactic was also taught in the mini-classes at the TexasCHLForum day.

Indeed. And the BBQ dinner later than night with you an a bunch of the guys was something to remember too.

Keith B wrote:When they turn their back to you they may just be REALLY loading their gun, racking the slide, etc to turn around an pop you. If they have have robbed you at gunpoint and turned their back to you, I would start trying to back away while drawing and if they turned or failed to move on away I would shoot. The main thing is try to get that distance between you when they drop their guard.

And it's not even a moral issue at that point; it's a matter of sound tactics. Unless you're an undercover police officer who believes that he should close the distance to effect an arrest or something, creating distance between you and the attacker should be a very high priority. My own reaction would be the same as Keith's—draw the gun while creating distance, and then firing if the BG suddenly turns back toward me. But the loss of whatever was in my wallet would have to be particularly ruinous to me to make me believe that shooting him in the back as he walked away would be worth it. That loss would have to outweigh the almost certain loss to me in legal defense fees, and it is pretty much certain that there is nothing in my wallet that is worth $50K or more......not to mention the possibility of incarceration.

Now, if he was stealing my dog, all bets are off.