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ScottDLS wrote:I would only carry concealed in my car if the parking lot was posted, because then I wouldn't be violating 30.06, since I would not be carrying under the authority of my LTC.

Does carry via MPA exempt you from the federal gun free zone stuff? Just curious.

This is all very very interesting to me. Thank you for putting up with me while I threw stuff against the wall to see what would stick.

With that said, most gas stations have pay at the pump, right? Which means you might not ever go inside the store. Because .06 only has to be in a conspicuous place, for the sake of argument let’s say it is at the cash register. You pull up to the pumps, get out with your CC, and start pumping. The LEO at the pump next to takes notice of your CC (for whatever reason… your shirt flies up in the wind etc.). Because the LEO gets free donuts every morning at this station, he knows its posted .06.

To the letter of .06, the station has given effective notice by posting in a conspicuous location and the entire property is off limits. Are you in violation of the law? Do you have a defense to prosecution?

thetexan wrote:

pt145ss wrote:

Archery1 wrote:It does no fit because public property is not private. We are part owners of public property, so restricting its use by us is legislated differently.

Where in .06/.07 does it distinguish a difference in public vs private? 46.035 does not use the term property anywhere and .06/07 uses the word property but does not carve out public vs. private. So it would be logical to assume that .06/.07 signs have the same meaning regardless of being posted on private or public property. Yet some are asserting that when on private property .06/.07 covers the entire property but when posted on public property it only covers the specific area being posted.

Again, I go back to the private school scenario. Private schools are not public property. They premises part of the school is statutorily off limits. I think most would agree that posting a .06/07 at the entrance of the private school building would be redundant and unnecessary because it is already off limits. I also think that most would agree that posting at the entrance to the build does not render the parking lot and driveway off limits. A private school, would need to post signs at the entrance to the driveways if they wanted to stop carry in the parking lot.

Would you agree with that? And if so, would that not mean that location of signs are important in indicating what areas of the property are off limits?

Back to the OP. If we apply this same logic to a gas station, a sign posted at the entrance to the store would indicate that the store itself is off limits but the pumps are OK. Furthermore, if the owners wanted to stop carry at the pumps they would need to post signs at each driveway or have sign at/near the pumps.

Not at all. Public property is mostly covered in statute. Most public property is owned by governmental entities and they are prohibited from posting by statute.


To assert that location of the sign gives additional meaning or interpretation to the message on this particular sign is not supported in the statute. This is because of the general wording on the sign. If it read, in part, "...beyond this point..." Or something similar then location would be an integral part of its interpretation.

As it stands now everything you attribute to the "logical" meaning of the sign being based on placement is entirely dependent on your interpretation of what you believe or what "logically" the owner's intentions are regarding what he is trying to accomplish; something you may guess at but cannot possibly factually know.

For all you know HE DOES want to prohibit guns on his entire property, and as far as 30.06 requirements, posting the 30.06 conspicuously and clearly visible to the public at the air pumps accomplishes the requirements of the statute for notification.

tex

This is good.

If your kids went to private school, and that school posted .06/.07 on the building entrance. Would you still carry in the parking lot when dropping them off?

Archery1 wrote:It does no fit because public property is not private. We are part owners of public property, so restricting its use by us is legislated differently.

Where in .06/.07 does it distinguish a difference in public vs private? 46.035 does not use the term property anywhere and .06/07 uses the word property but does not carve out public vs. private. So it would be logical to assume that .06/.07 signs have the same meaning regardless of being posted on private or public property. Yet some are asserting that when on private property .06/.07 covers the entire property but when posted on public property it only covers the specific area being posted.

Again, I go back to the private school scenario. Private schools are not public property. They premises part of the school is statutorily off limits. I think most would agree that posting a .06/07 at the entrance of the private school building would be redundant and unnecessary because it is already off limits. I also think that most would agree that posting at the entrance to the build does not render the parking lot and driveway off limits. A private school, would need to post signs at the entrance to the driveways if they wanted to stop carry in the parking lot.

Would you agree with that? And if so, would that not mean that location of signs are important in indicating what areas of the property are off limits?

Back to the OP. If we apply this same logic to a gas station, a sign posted at the entrance to the store would indicate that the store itself is off limits but the pumps are OK. Furthermore, if the owners wanted to stop carry at the pumps they would need to post signs at each driveway or have sign at/near the pumps.

Solaris wrote:

pt145ss wrote: Please explain to me...

If a valid 30.06 sign means the entire property is off limits. Then a 30.06 sign in fornt of City Council chambers during a meeting, means the tax collector's office is also off limits because it is on the same property as City council chambers. Correct?

No.

Unfortunately the legislature mandates use of 30.06 sign even on for places it is not OK. This creates confusion. In your specific case the TC office is OK since it is not 46.03 or 46.035 as listed in 30.06.

There is also effective consent. The gas station can post 30.06 and then tell folks CC/OC is OK as long as you do not come in the building.

The argument that some are making is that because of the word "property" in the .06/.07 language, a valid posted sign renders the entire property off limits regardless of where the sign is posted on the property. In this light, I am trying to reconcile this logic with other situations.

In the case of City Council and a Tax Collectors office (multipurpose building), I think most would agree that that a .06 sign at the entrance of City Council chambers would not render the entire “property” off limits and.06 would only pertain/apply to the City Council chambers. City Council chambers are not statutorily off limits. City Council can choose to allow CC or not during meeting s that are subject to “Open Meeting.” The code does not require them to post, it only requires them to post if they want to ban CC during that meeting.

In the case of a private school, I think most would agree that they would need to post .06 at the parking lot entrances if they wanted to stop CC in the parking lot. If not post at the entrances, then CC would be ok in the parking lot.

In the case of public universities (in August), will no longer be statutorily off limits and they will need to post .06 in the areas they want to designate as off limits, but the .06 sign will not render the entire property off limits. It only renders the areas posted as off limits.

Given the scenarios above, why would posting .06/.07 on the front door of a gas station, automatically extend to the gas pumps? It does not seem to fit/reconcile with the other scenarios.

I would agree that in theory, property and premises have two different meanings, but I would submit that the practical application of .06/07 seems to ignore this difference. I would also submit that the legislative intent, is not for .06/.07 to render the entire property off limits as supported by campus carry legislation and its application of .06… regardless of the word “property.”

WildBill wrote:

Archery1 wrote:

pt145ss wrote:True story...

There is a gas station down the street from my house, after 1/1/16 they posted both 30.06 and 30.07 (both compliant) on the glass next to the entrance door. They have since taken down the 30.06 and only have 30.07 posted. By all means this is effective notice.

Question, are the pumps, sidewalks, and public entering driveways off limits because there is a 30.07 sign on the entrance door?

2, Last week, an employee (I assume) in their infinite wisdom decided that they would park a hand truck with firewood right in front of the 30.07. It’s been there ever since. The sign is posted according to 30.07 but with the hand truck in the way, is it effective notice? Some may see it, if they are looking for it.

Well, this is why I am wondering about the property v. premise issue a bit. I have common sense I can fall back on, but I also know that way back the word "premise" was debated and adopted for very specific case law backing, of which word adoption, I believe a very prominent member here was part of such discussion on the legislation surrounding this word use. That's what gave us specific meaning to buildings v. parking lots. What I would like to see as an answer, is that if the sign say "may not enter this property", that's it. That property, building, to which the sign is attached and referencing, leaving all other property unposted.

I am a believer in common sense, but I think this thread is about the law. There are different laws about posting signs on a property and carrying on a premise. If you read about 30.06 postings they talk about property.
My common sense tells me that you can not enter a premise without first entering the property.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/7/30/30.06

Please explain to me...

If a valid 30.06 sign means the entire property is off limits. Then a 30.06 sign in fornt of City Council chambers during a meeting, means the tax collector's office is also off limits because it is on the same property as City council chambers. Correct?

True story...

There is a gas station down the street from my house, after 1/1/16 they posted both 30.06 and 30.07 (both compliant) on the glass next to the entrance door. They have since taken down the 30.06 and only have 30.07 posted. By all means this is effective notice.

Question, are the pumps, sidewalks, and public entering driveways off limits because there is a 30.07 sign on the entrance door?

2, Last week, an employee (I assume) in their infinite wisdom decided that they would park a hand truck with firewood right in front of the 30.07. It’s been there ever since. The sign is posted according to 30.07 but with the hand truck in the way, is it effective notice? Some may see it, if they are looking for it.

LucasMcCain wrote:Back on topic, and relating to my previous post, there is a difference in the law between the terms "premises" and "property." Premises specifically does not include parking lots, sidewalks, walkways, and the like. Property can include all areas owned by the entity in question. That said, I do not feel a sign on a building to be effective or conspicuous notice for the parking lot or fuel pump area. As has been mentioned, that would be up to a jury to decide, should it come to that. Personally, I would say that concealed means concealed, and if you have any doubts about the business's stance on open carry, just cover it up. Again, I hope this helps.

I agree, we talk about "walking past" a sign. If a gas station wanted the pumps to be off limits I would think they would post the sign at the private driveway(s) or at the pumps themselves. If they have it on the doors, I take it to mean they do not want it in the store portion specifically.

I used the City Council meeting as an example because this does happen. The post 30.06 signs to indicate that they do not want CC in the chambers during the meeting, but that by no mean indcate that the rest of the building is off limits. Simply because the code uses the term "property."

thetexan wrote:

pt145ss wrote:I must admit that I only scanned through this post but something that keeps jumping out at me. The topic header insinuates 30.06 and 30.07. Then someone makes the argument about "property" in that a sign anywhere on the property (assuming it is consicous) renders the enite property off limits... for example at the gas pumps when the sign is at the door to the building.

My question is how do we reconile that logic, seemingly bolstered by 30.006, with 30.07. 30.07 uses the same term "Property" but goes a little further and says it must be visible from each enterence to the property. Following that logic, is a 30.07 sign invalid because it is on the door of the building and may not be visible from each enterence to the property? As in many cases, where a gas station has side enterences to the "property."

Does the meaning of property change from 30.06 to 30.07?

Is it logical or illogical to use government meetings as an example. City council can post 30.06 signs in meeting rooms when meeting are taking place... Does that mean the entire building is off limits or does that mean the room where the meeting is is off limits?

Sec. 30.07. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH AN OPENLY CARRIED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) openly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that entry on the property by a license holder openly carrying a handgun was forbidden.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.07, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with an openly carried handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a handgun that is carried openly"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

Don't confuse the requirements for proper posting of the sign itself with the message that is on the sign. What if the sign said "NO ELEPHANTS ALLOWED ON THIS PROPERTY" and the requirements for proper sign posting said that these signs had to be posted specifically on each mail box. The two have nothing to do with each other.

tex

Wait.. What...

Not sure i understand that.

Specifically, City council can post a 30.06 sign during City Council meetings correct? Those signs are usually at the enterence to the City Council chambers, correct?

If the Tax collector office is in the same building as the city council chambers, does that mean the tax collectors office is off limits because city council is having a meeting elsewhere in the building? After all they are on the same "property" correct?

I must admit that I only scanned through this post but something that keeps jumping out at me. The topic header insinuates 30.06 and 30.07. Then someone makes the argument about "property" in that a sign anywhere on the property (assuming it is consicous) renders the enite property off limits... for example at the gas pumps when the sign is at the door to the building.

My question is how do we reconile that logic, seemingly bolstered by 30.006, with 30.07. 30.07 uses the same term "Property" but goes a little further and says it must be visible from each enterence to the property. Following that logic, is a 30.07 sign invalid because it is on the door of the building and may not be visible from each enterence to the property? As in many cases, where a gas station has side enterences to the "property."

Does the meaning of property change from 30.06 to 30.07?

Is it logical or illogical to use government meetings as an example. City council can post 30.06 signs in meeting rooms when meeting are taking place... Does that mean the entire building is off limits or does that mean the room where the meeting is is off limits?

Sec. 30.07. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH AN OPENLY CARRIED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) openly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that entry on the property by a license holder openly carrying a handgun was forbidden.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.07, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with an openly carried handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a handgun that is carried openly"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.