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LDP wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:34 pm Lots of mistakes in this story.
But it ultimately comes down to the jury of our so called "peers" and how well the prosecutor can spin the race card, poor man card or plain "stealing isn't that bad" card.

Also, I rememeber that when I originally took my CHL class, the instructor mentioned some law that allows one to use deadly force to stop a thief from stealing property but only unrecoverable/untraceable property. If the stolen item could be traced back to you if found by the police, you may not use deadly force to stop the theft. He literally said "I can't shoot a thief for stealing my truck but I can shoot him for taking my hubcaps". I cannot quote the exact law, sorry. Hopefully someone has a handy link.

I don’t know what law he is referring to, either, and I am a lawyer. I would strongly advise not taking legal advice from a CHL instructor unless that instructor is otherwise qualified to render legal advice on that particular issue. And, no, being a cop or ex cop does not qualify one to render legal advice. I can’t believe some of the phoney street law I’ve heard that starts with “my CHL instructor said...”

A CHL/LTC class is just a box the Legislature says you have to check to get an LTC in Texas. An LTC holder should never actually rely exclusively on what he learned at his CHL class.

There is an element of defense of property requiring you to prove that you reasonably believed that there was no other way to protect or recover the property. But many of these issues are not well defined. There are not many bright line rules in self defense law.

srothstein wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:15 pm

rotor wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:52 pmHow many understand the difference between theft at night (most don't know what legal night is) and "recoverable" property? Even LTC holders don't fully understand these laws.

I think you are right. I sincerely doubt most people know what is meant by night, legally. And those who do, probably don't understand what is the legal time for sunset (though they may know where to look up the time for their area).

My understanding of legal night, for those who are curious, is 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise. Sunset is defined as when the bottom edge of the sun touches the horizon and sun rise is defined as when the bottom edge clears the horizon. Now if I can find the citations for that, I will edit this to be sure.

EDIT: A quick search found that the definition of daytime and nighttime are in Transportation Code section 541.401. I can't find the definition of sunrise or sunset in the quick search.

Careful. The definitions in section 541.401 only apply “in this subtitle,” meaning the “Rules of the Road” part of the Transportation Code. They do not apply at all to the Penal Code or to the issue of defense of property in Texas.

Your understanding of the definition of night in the context of the Penal Code sections on defense of property is probably right, though. The Court of Criminal Appeals long ago adopted that definition (30 minutes after sunset to 30 minutes before sunrise) with regard to burglary, and the defense of property statute is really referring to the same concept,

For what it’s worth, at English common law, the crime of burglary could only occur at night, and night was when it was so dark one could not “discern the countenance” of a man.