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Bullwhip wrote:

Dragonfighter wrote:We used to have a saying: There is nothing more dangerous than a butter bar lieutenant with a pair of binos and a compass.

My experience was, "Hey, [abbreviated profanity deleted], where are we?"

Armor commanders back then didn't have GPS, they had butter bar field artillery guys. best map readers in the whole military.

That's the truth.

Purplehood wrote:

Listen to the talk of any one who has been in the military for 10 or more years and they'll tell you loudly that they themselves don't trust the 18-21 year olds.

I was 17 when I joined the Marines. I have been handling firearms since I was 7 or 8 years old.

It is my fervent belief that If I am old enough to die for my country I am old enough to rate all its privileges.

There are 30 year Military veterans that I would never trust around firearms.

We used to have a saying: There is nothing more dangerous than a butter bar lieutenant with a pair of binos and a compass.

Hoi Polloi wrote:

Dragonfighter wrote:A little OT, but when I was seventeen I used to run...a lot. <SNIP>

Because those 17 and 18 year olds are not at all trusted. They're treated like children. When they go to the bathroom, what clothes they wear, what they eat and when, what haircut they'll have, and every other aspect of their life is strictly controlled to create uniformity and that external control on every detail is only loosened (somewhat) after a sufficient period to create internal conformity to the unit as a whole. <SNIP>

I would argue, having "been there, done that", all is geared for cohesiveness and a base standard of competency. It would be terribly impractical to presume an "army" without a common discipline and training standard would have any hope of successfully completing their mission.

Listen to the talk of any one who has been in the military for 10 or more years and they'll tell you loudly that they themselves don't trust the 18-21 year olds. The caste system is alive and well in our military. The officers have separate housing, restaurants, facilities, etc while the "kids" are allowed to go "play" after their "chores" are done. Ironically, many sources say the 18-21 demographic is the most populated age range in the military.

Really? At eighteen I had the fate of an entire infantry company in my hands. I was regularly consulted by the CO and XO before actions were taken. At nineteen I was an advance man on the ground for a SF team. While not common, I was hardly an exception.

The separation of ranks is a matter of fraternization. While conducive to a certain "prejudice" it also serves to prevent an officer from befriending or dating a subordinate and then applying pressures apart from the chain-of-command.

I very much respect all who are serving as well as their families who sacrifice so much so that they can serve our nation. From a purely philosophical standpoint, the quotes I read here on gun control and societal control by Lenin and Mao very much apply to the culture under which our military is run. The high ups want complete allegiance, uniformity, and to know that orders will be followed unquestioningly.
<SNIP> They can't function with free thinkers, no matter what the cause.

That's a negative. During all phases of my training creative problem solving, discernment and open dialogue were encouraged (providing for proper protocol). Questioning of orders when cause for their legality, ROE or unnecessary risks came into doubt was not only accepted but demanded. Protection for the refusal of unlawful orders is in the UCMJ.

Restoring full gun rights to 18-20 year old military members, or any military members, encompasses a lot more than a Constitutional argument on the 2nd Amendment. It strikes at the heart of how our entire military is run.

At nineteen, I had qualified expert with M-16, 1911 and hand grenade. I had been cross-trained in the operation and field maintenance of the Makarov 9x18, and Kalashnikov 7.62x39 (AK-47). When my unit went on alert and I pulled CQ, I was required to report to the unit armory and pull my sidearm. But they didn't trust me

Edited for spelling.

A little OT, but when I was seventeen I used to run...a lot. I used to run occasionally with a DPS trooper in the neighborhood. He was the only one that could keep up with me on either my eight or ten mile days. I was do to go in in three months, he invited me in for a beer. I squirmed a little and he said that he figured if I was old enough to serve, I was old enough to have a beer.

I didn't quite get it then, I do now. Why can an eighteen year old (or even seventeen year old) be responsible enough to be set on the ground in foreign lands with arms, explosives and crypto yet not responsible enough to carry CCW after undergoing the training and background checks?