TexasCHLforum.com

TexasCajun wrote: If there's no physical barrier with signage saying something like 'no alcoholic beverages beyond this point'. Then assume the whole building is 51% & off limits for concealed carry.

You could probably use that as a guideline, but it may not be a legal border. It will totally depend on the area defined on the license when the TABC application was approved. So, again, can't tell without confirmation by TABC

Piney wrote:Could one assume that the whole facility would fall under the 51% license/signage because one can carry their purchased beverage around the facility ?

You would need to assume yes. It IS possible that a specific area in the building was defined when the license was issued, but more than likely the company will request the whole building so alcohol can be served and consumed anywhere in the location. The only way to know for sure what portion of the building or whole building has been defined is to contact TABC and ask them to tell you. There is no way for us to do it from the Internet. So, my advice is error on the side of caution, and if you see a 51% sign or the location is listed as 51%, then assume it is the whole building until you know differently.

lfinsr wrote:So... instead of alienating the entire CHL community, they create another entity whose sole business is selling alcohol and put up a 51% sign. I'd be happier if they were just up front about it and put up a 30.06 sign. At least I'd know they don't want my money.

Larry

I doubt very seriously that they do it just to keep out CHL'ers. There have been businesses that use food companies to do their catering and concessions for longer than I have been alive (over half a century). I know our company uses a food company in our cafeterias and stadiums, art galleries, museums, etc do the same thing. Just common practice, but that throws the monkey wrench into it when that company holds the liquor license and makes more than 51% from alcohol sales.

cb1000rider wrote:

Keith B wrote: As for no signs, they are supposed to have either the red (>51% or no carry) or blue (<51% or carry OK) sign posted. But, that doesn't mean they will. No sign posted still doesn't make it legal if you accidentally carry into a >51% location, but there is a defense to prosecution if the establishment doesn't have the sign posted, or the wrong sign posted and you carry there. Still may have to defend yourself in court though.

Thanks, Keith.. great clarification!

Oh, and a red 51% sign on a non-51% location does not make the location legally off-limits for carry, but as Ricky used to say to Lucy 'You got some 'splainin' to do' if you get caught carrying and the officer thinks it is a prohibited location. The license posted would be your evidence to show where it says GUN SIGN BLUE and not RED.

chamberc wrote:

Texsquatch wrote:Whoa.... I'm lost. So, I'm at a festival, no signs posted, but there is a beer garden and of course their revenue exceeds 51%. If CHL off limits? Would it matter if festival is downtown/outdoors? Or, would being indoors be different?

If the address is listed on the TABC database as 51%, then yes, it's off limits.

Actually, it does not have to be in the database. Festivals could potentially be issued a temporary license and the database may not get updated before they festival occurs, or ever if the license expires before they enter it. And, indoors or outdoors doesn't matter, if it is a >51% location, then no carry. And, it depends on the area defined on the license application and approved by the TABC. No way to know really how much that is or what it covers.

As for no signs, they are supposed to have either the red (>51% or no carry) or blue (<51% or carry OK) sign posted. But, that doesn't mean they will. No sign posted still doesn't make it legal if you accidentally carry into a >51% location, but there is a defense to prosecution if the establishment doesn't have the sign posted, or the wrong sign posted and you carry there. Still may have to defend yourself in court though.

Best bet is, if you are carrying, and you suspicion the location is 51%, signs or not you should probably steer clear of it.

Jaguar wrote:

z_clark wrote:I went to the symphony Friday 8-23-13.

They had a red 51% sign at both corner entrances on a movable podium / post structure. They were inside, about 5 feet from the doors, and right in the middle of the two sets of doors as you walk in.

Not sure if it is a valid 51% location, but they defiantly put it in a location that it can't be missed as you walk in.

Oh, and although the symphony is not really my thing, it was pretty darn good!

I sent an e-mail to the TABC last year and never got a reply, but from what you wrote here they at least made them change the signs to comply with the law. I still find it hard to believe it is a valid 51% location espically after what SigM4 said as a former bartender at the Bass Hall.

And yes - I grew up on Rock n Roll, but really enjoy the symphony when I have a chance.

It IS a 51% location. You can look it up here http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and use the license number MB428754 or just see SigM4's post above. The reason it is a RED location is the alcohol sales are handled by a contracted company named ARTS AMENITIES INC that holds the liquor license for the location. If that contracted company makes more than 51% of their revenue from the sale of alcohol, then the license is issued to them as a >51% location, doesn't matter about the rest of the income from the hall itself. When the concessionaire applied for the license, they more than likely listed the whole building as the location for sales, so the whole building will be off limits. The only way you can validate the area covered by the license is to contact the TABC and ask them to look at that particular license and see if the whole address is included, but more than likely it will be as they normally will cover anywhere in the building a person is allowed to take their alcohol to, which includes the lobby, restaurants and performance hall itself.

EDIT TO ADD: This is a loophole that needs to be addressed by statute and remove the 51% restriction from CHL's carrying.

Jaguar wrote:

Ark03 wrote:

ETA: Since it is not a legal 51% sign, it provides a defense to prosecution.

If you do carry and get arrested, your lawyer would have an "out" for you because they do not have the correct sign posted ...

I'm no lawyer, but in my CHL class, we specifically went over this - we were told that an incorrect or missing 51% sign is not a defense to prosecution if a reasonable person should know that it is a 51% establishment from either incorrect signage or because it is a bar or something like that.

I sure wouldn't want to be an expensive test case for it.

We are talking about Bass Performance Hall, I would have never known it was a 51% location unless I had seen this thread and researched the TABC website. Had I not seen this thread, I would have walked past the incorrect sign in a heartbeat without looking twice and never considered it more than a poor attempt at legal signage. Also, I thought Bass Hall was on Commerce Street, not until I did some Google Fu did I find the address to be E 4th Street, I only looked on the TABC website for Commerce and found nothing, but the fact that there wasn’t even a Blue Sign for the address tipped me off.

I guess I need to get the TABC involved, they are paid to make sure these things don’t go unresolved. I would hate to hear that someone got arrested when all it would take is proper signs to warn the carrying public.

It is appropriate for them to make their own 51% signs, but they MUST have the red 51% in there and the right size. Contacting the TABC would be the right thing to do so they will post the appropriate sign. These are one of those venues that can get you into trouble very easily as you would assume they would NOT be a 51% premise.

I think they were trying to make their own version of a 51% sign, but it is not a legal sign because there is no large red 51 on it. As a note, Bass Performance Hall IS a 51% location due to the liquor license being issued to a vendor and the vendor makes more than 51% of their revenue from alcohol sales. This makes the whole address off limits.