fickman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:47 am This is a mess. I am extremely unsympathetic to the shooters even if there is an avenue by which a shrewd attorney may cobble together an effective defense. Their temperaments subvert everything we are trying to accomplish on this forum.
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Were I a juror, I would find them guilty of murder.
I feel strongly that they were not standing their legal ground, but rather that they entered the alley to be the armed enforcers of the neighborhood dumpster rules. They go into the alley with the intent to enforce their side of the dumpster dispute, they refuse to deescalate / walk away / defer to governing authorities, and throughout the video - they make it apparent that they want the fight and are looking for an excuse to make good on their threats. I'd go so far as to say they went into the conflict thinking they could bait him into crossing their line in the sand. These two wanted to shoot somebody and (again - my own speculation) probably thought they'd gotten their legal defense airtight by trying to use all of the self-defense magic words. I wouldn't be surprised if they both have years of posts on AR15.com about how tough they are.
I hope they get the longest sentence possible; if nothing else than for the message it will send to other mouth-breathers who think their gun elevates them to a new power strata. I'll be disappointed if they get away with lower charges.
There are other ways to have a "dumpster rule" enforced. No one, elected, them "dumpster monitors". Rather than try to speak with the person reasonably, about it, they took it upon themselves, to remove the offending item, and toss it onto, the other guys property. Then, they armed themselves, to confront him, about it when he put it back. I don't have much sympathy, for the victim either since, he could have also deescalated, the situation, by walking away, and contacting the police. Too much stupidity, coming together in one place. I don't see them, getting much sympathy from a jury, when they have to answer, as to why they were there in the first place, rather than just report, a dumpster violation. JMHO