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by Jusme
Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:24 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Worst LTC Student?
Replies: 81
Views: 18195

Re: Worst LTC Student?

Embalmo wrote:
twomillenium wrote:
Embalmo wrote:My class was full of people who'd obviously never loaded of fired a handgun. Why would someone want to gain their license to carry if they weren't into shooting and handling handguns already? I certainly wouldn't have taken my driving test if I hadn't practiced driving. Maybe a range punch card should be required to prove that the student has some range time under their belt.
Why would someone be "required" to practice at a public range? They can pass or they can't.
I guess we should "require" someone to teach them to drive, too.
Yes, I believe someone should be taught to drive before taking their driving test. Individuals should be required to have been taught minimal range safety and proficiency before endangering others in their LTC training. An experienced buddy and range time is an excellent way to learn which direction to insert a magazine and how not to stick your finger in the trigger guard.

I've never taught an LTC class, but it certainly doesn't seem practical for an instructor to individually teach several students who've never touch a handgun how to load a handgun and operate it safely.

The role of an LTC instructor is not teach students how to operate or shoot their gun. No more than some one giving a driving test is supposed to teach someone to drive. It is the student's responsibilty, to demonstrate their proficiency.
By "requiring" a training class prior to taking an LTC course, it puts more government intervention into the process of being "allowed" to carry. A responsible gun owner, who wants to obtain an LTC probably "should" take it upon themselves to be trained to meet the requirements, but that should be at their discretion, and if they can't pass, then they will have to do the same as a driver who fails their driving test, and practice so they can pass, the next time.JMHO
by Jusme
Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:26 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Worst LTC Student?
Replies: 81
Views: 18195

Re: Worst LTC Student?

I get a lot of questions about LTC, the process, the range qualifications, the classroom etc. I am not an LTC instructor, but I give honest answers as a former student. I tell everyone that the class, and range qualifications were not difficult, for me but that I do have an extensive background with both firearms and law enforcement. I tell everyone that they need to gain proficiency with their gun(s) before taking the class. I emphasize that the, LTC instructor, will not train them on handling firearms or shooting, and that they need to find a local basic firearms course before taking the class, otherwise they will not only face unnecessary stress with trying to " learn on the fly" but will be unsafe to themselves and others.
I was fortunate there were no students in the classroom, who weren't proficient enough to be able to safely handle their guns, but the instructor told some horror stories during the safety lecture, to demonstrate the type of things that would cause someone to be removed from the range.

Again, I don't believe that there should be any more requirements to obtain an LTC, than are already in place, but I think that the uninitiated, should be made very aware of the fact that taking an LTC class will not train them on how to safely operate, or effectively shoot their gun.
by Jusme
Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:17 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Worst LTC Student?
Replies: 81
Views: 18195

Re: Worst LTC Student?

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Liberty wrote:
zmcgooga wrote: I just think that maybe there should be a prerequisite class of basic firearm safety, that stresses the safety and proper handling of a firearm.
I disagree .. We don't need more red tape. Lots of us know how to shoot, and do so safely before we ever took a formal course. I had was hunting as a 15 year old, shot recreationaly, and served in the army long before I applied for my CHL. Although I have taken a few gun courses and safety courses since receiving my CHL. My point is that the courses can help those who are unfamiliar with guns, there are many of us have achieved proficiency and learned safety with out a formal certifiable course.
I think the problem we are seeing mostly here lies with the instructors. Many are running classes that are way too big. The instructors mentioned here with the "special" students are being extremely negligent in letting these students continue, and fraudulent for letting students pass with only 15 hits on the target. Most instructors have a prerequisite. of a Basic Safety course. but they will bypass this requirement if the potential student has explained their proficiency and and experiance. I think it used to be that most of the older old school instructors became instructors because they believed in the CHL program, and wanted to make it work. It seems to me that a lot of the newer instructors are into it because its a living and not as highly motivated about the program itself.
I don't think the state ought to require a basic firearms class in order to take an LTC class. (Actually.....I think that firearms safety and shooting skills should be taught in the public schools, but that's a whole different argument.) But nobody in their right mind should take the class to learn how to handle a firearm and shoot one, and no instructor in his/her right mind should pass a student who is demonstrably dangerous (to the innocent) with a firearm in their hands. The curriculum as written by the state was not designed to teach that. Philosophically, I would rather there be no licensing requirement at all. In my perfect world, we'd have Constitutional Carry. But also in my perfect world, people would have had an opportunity somewhere along the line to satisfactorily demonstrate to themselves and others the most basic proficiency with the manual of arms for the weapon they choose to carry. But we don't live in my perfect world, and the reality is that we have LTC law which we have to contend with.

The LTC class range requirements exist expressly for the purpose of a student demonstrating to the instructor his or her proficiency with that particular gun, and the requirements DO NOT EXIST for the purpose of the instructor teaching the student that proficiency. Anybody who argues otherwise is plainly mis-stating the legislative intent of the law. You are required to take the written test to prove that you understand the things your were taught in the classroom, and you are required to take the range test to prove that you can safely handle the pistol, and shoot it with enough skill to score a minimum amount of points on a B27 target. The B27 target is chosen very specifically for it's silhouette, and there is a reason for that. Otherwise, it would be perfectly OK to use any old bullseye target you wanted to use. But the idea is to keep the bullets inside a human-shaped silhouette. The degree to which you can do that is the degree to which you prove to your instructor a minimal level of competence at not shooting unintended victims. And it ought to be made plain to the student that every single bullet that failed to land inside that silhouette is a bullet that cannot be recalled, and that might well have hit an innocent bystander.

If you cannot pass the written test, you fail the class—and you should not be issued the LTC under the guidelines of the law. The teacher cannot answer the questions for you. You either have to know the answers, or know where to find them, or to at least make educated guesses based on what you remember from the class. But you HAVE TO PASS based on your score. If an instructor passes you anyway by falsifying your score, that instructor is breaking the law. The same standards apply for the range qualification. There is a REASON we call it a "qualification". To qualify, you have to shoot a minimum score, and you have to demonstrate safe gun-handling. If you can do neither, or even if you can do one but not the other, YOU DO NOT QUALIFY. Both are necessary to passing. If you do not qualify, you should not pass. If the instructor passes you anyway by falsifying your shooting score, the instructor has broken the law. If the instructor passes you anyway by OK'ing your demonstrably negligent gun handling, then he or she has at least violated the spirit of the law, if not the actual letter of it.

As a libertarian leaning person, I believe that a truly free society is not without risks, and I totally get that. But as long as the law exists, we cannot call ourselves law-abiding people if we treat the process with a wink-wink nudge-nudge and fudge the requirements. People who cannot pass either portion of the class - the written test, and the range qualification - should be failed. I don't want the state to give its official imprimatur to people who are demonstrably not qualified, so long as the state demands qualification. If the state doesn't demand qualification, then neither the state or the instructors can be blamed for passing and licensing people who seriously have no business carrying a firearm. But as long as the state DOES demand qualifications, then the state and the instructors assume at least the moral liability whenever they churn out license holders who probably shouldn't ever handle, let alone carry a firearm.

In other words, this is a fish or cut bait issue. If the state insists on the controls, then it must enforce the controls; and that means busting instructors who cheat the system. If the state doesn't want to enforce the controls and bust the instructors, then it should remove the controls entirely. Otherwise, it's just another example of a law kept on the books for the purposes of harassing and controlling people only when it is convenient to the state. We have enough of that crap already.
I fully agree, the argument about whether or not we should prove proficiency, to exercise a Constitutional right is a whole different argument. For now, the State has set up requirements to be met to obtain an LTC. If instructors are not enforcing those requirements, then they need to be removed as certified instructors. There should also be no prerequisite requirements. If a person wants to obtain their LTC, then they need to prepare themselves, or expect to fail. The entire LTC range course requirements are available on line, and a person should take the time to make sure they can meet these minimums before signing up for the class. I would know my limitations and would take whatever steps necessary to be sure I was at least as proficient as the State requires.JMHO

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