TexasCHLforum.com

Liberty wrote:

Papa_Tiger wrote:

Liberty wrote:Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.

I would probably disagree with that statement. At least in the dense metropolitan areas. That is why the number of 30.06/07 signs went through the roof this past year. My opinion is that posting 06 indicates an attitude of "Icky guns! why do you need that?!?" and 07 indicates "I don't care, I just don't want to see it for my sake or for the sake of my other customers."

I understand that there is still a lot of antigun sentiment, But I believe we have we have come a long way, and that while we saw a lot of signs go up, Some have come back down after they have met with customer disapproval or education. Just because a few places put up signs doesn't mean that most people aren't understanding of our cause, the vast majority of retail allow guns.
This doesn't mean that we should rush into things either, We need to mitigate negative responses before we actually pass laws. Education is the answer; Maybe we can get TV ads like NRA produced for the Trump campaign. Maybe we need more facts and figures.

That could work.
I know there seems to be a lot of gun store/gun range/ LTC class commercials both on TV and radio. I think that there is a large contingent of people, who may be interested, in learning to shoot, or obtaining their LTC, but they are not educated about guns, and may feel intimidated about asking questions, for fear of being ridiculed or denigrated. I know some of these ads try to appeal to these people especially among women, but I don't think most people feel confident enough to go in and ask questions. If there could be ads for classes, just for people to obtain general knowledge about guns, firearm laws, LTC, etc.. that weren't trying to sell guns, or even promote their use and carry, especially if it emphasised safety, it might help bring in more people. JMHO

Syntyr wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Syntyr wrote:

Liberty wrote:
My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.

Liberty,

Totally agree on the validity of your statement. But the problem is the very statement itself requires that legislatures and their constituents use logic and think about an issue instead of using their feels. Unfortunately a majority of people nowadays rely on their feelings and even mentioning the word gun evoks a fight or flight response in them. Dont know how we get past it but I wish we could...

Education! It's worked in past, but it takes time. Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.

And that is why I OC every where I can! Especially in Houston - Take that Art Acevedo!

Also just taught my 16 year old niece to shoot for the first time.

Awesome!!


Looks like she is already a crack shot!

Liberty wrote:

Syntyr wrote:

Liberty wrote:
My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.

Liberty,

Totally agree on the validity of your statement. But the problem is the very statement itself requires that legislatures and their constituents use logic and think about an issue instead of using their feels. Unfortunately a majority of people nowadays rely on their feelings and even mentioning the word gun evoks a fight or flight response in them. Dont know how we get past it but I wish we could...

Education! It's worked in past, but it takes time. Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.

Exactly, the general public is still being fed the left wing, anti gun rhetoric, and with very few exceptions, there is nothing in mainstream communications, to offer a different perspective. I wish that more gun owners, not just LTC holders would become better ambassadors for our cause. I think that we as LTC holders have done an exemplary job of not only educating, but demonstrating our trustworthiness, unfortunately, we haven't been able to expand that message very far outside our inner circle. If we can work together to expand the message that we are not a bunch of "gun nuts" wanting to walk around terrorizing the populace, then we can begin to chip away at the fear and loathing spread by the left. I know it will take two things most people don't have in great supply and that is time and money. I am very encouraged by the huge increases in LTC holders throughout the State, so I believe the wall is slowly coming down, but we will have to remain on our "A" game to continue to spread the message to everyone we can.
I try to talk to people all the time about carrying. Generally when the subject of being afraid to be out in public, comes up, because they are afraid of being victimized, I encourage them to look into the possibility of becoming an LTC holder, training, etc.. Some take it to heart and go about getting their LTC. Others, repeat misinformation they have heard from the left about how dangerous it is to carry, and some are very adamant about not doing so.
These one on one exchanges, are important, but it's a slow process, and doesn't reach everyone.

Liberty wrote:

Jusme wrote:

Liberty wrote:How has constitutional carry worked out in Arizona, They have a couple of large cities, I haven't seen any statistics. But I also haven't seen any big movement to get rid of it. It seems to work there, how is Texas different?

Texas is different due to population density and left wing factions at work in the big cities. Arizona's largest city is Phoenix, and it has a population of 1.4 million. The rest of the state is pretty sparsely populated, and the prevailing attitudes there are not nearly as left leaning as any of our large cities, like Houston Dallas, San Antonio and Austin. There was resistance from the left in Arizona with open and unrestricted carry, but they didn't have the numbers.

I'm not suggesting that Texas gun owners are less responsible, it is just the political climate here is vastly different than Arizona's

I don't agree with your population assessment, although I don't have any facts or figures at hand. Tuscon is a college town that to me is as liberal as Austin. and The city of Phoenix is as dense as the sprawled out Houston with a very large population of Hispanics (legal and illegal). Although the towns and unincorporated parts around Arizona are very conservative. Maricopa County tends to be pretty conservative, but they don't have a lot of support from the city of Phoenix itself. I think it's fair to make comparisons, on how constitutional carry would work.

The difference is the culture, The people there have always had exposure to guns and the open carry. Open carry there has not only been allowed but people there have actually done it. Years ago there were bars where folks actually checked their guns. We weren't even allowed to conceal carry until 1996, and open carry until very recently.

My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.

I agree the culture in Arizona is much different than in Texas. And I agree that Arizona, as well as other states, could be used to demonstrate that unrestricted carry is workable. My thinking is that Texas has only recently become a conservative State, we are only three Governors removed from Ann Richards. The margins of difference are slim, and old prevailing attitudes still remain, regarding the carrying of handguns, on both sides of the spectrum. While 20 years seems like a long time, to me, as well as the "old guard" in Texas politics, it has only been a few minutes since CHL was passed. With no long history, to fall back on, the idea of unrestricted carry, still scares the you know what, out of people here. JMHO

Liberty wrote:How has constitutional carry worked out in Arizona, They have a couple of large cities, I haven't seen any statistics. But I also haven't seen any big movement to get rid of it. It seems to work there, how is Texas different?

Texas is different due to population density and left wing factions at work in the big cities. Arizona's largest city is Phoenix, and it has a population of 1.4 million. The rest of the state is pretty sparsely populated, and the prevailing attitudes there are not nearly as left leaning as any of our large cities, like Houston Dallas, San Antonio and Austin. There was resistance from the left in Arizona with open and unrestricted carry, but they didn't have the numbers.

I'm not suggesting that Texas gun owners are less responsible, it is just the political climate here is vastly different than Arizona's

nlyric wrote:

bblhd672 wrote:

nlyric wrote: Charles, I thought I had responded already but guess I neglected to hit submit.
I certainly can not say it "will" pass. But I do believe if the NRA fully supports it, it has a very good chance. And like I've said none if they don't....
Reasons that support that have been already stated by some. Republican platform, control, and a governor who would surely sign it.
Would rather see the goal out weigh the glory and discourse for a change.

You are assuming that all of the Republicans in Austin have the same degree of interest in expanding gun rights as we do.

Would rather take a positive stand and at least get in the ring. As opposed to throwing in the towel because the politically schooled are predicting there is no way we can win. And like it or not that is also an assumption. No better example then the election we just had.
And in this case they are claiming support for unlicenced carry BUT we lost already. And there is some sort of an issue with who wrote the bill. And some sort of issue with who tried to take credit for past bills. Makes one seriously wonder if there isn't some sort of an issue with who gets credit for the bill should it pass.... Sorry folks it sure has that look.

You are more than welcome to push your representatives as much as you feel necessary to get this passed. Neither, the members, nor even the moderators of this forum make laws. We are simply expressing our opinions regarding our experiences with the legislature. All of my representatives are Republican, I have had conversations both in person and on-line with them, and they have given very valid reasons for why they think "unrestricted' carry won't pass.
Just getting prohibited locations for LTC holders will be very difficult. I doubt that the NRA opposes unrestricted carry, but without a large contingent of legislators, backing the bill, even their input won't sway that many.
There is no one here opposing the legislation, I simply feel that trying to push this down the throats of legislators, immediately following open carry and campus carry, that the resistance will be too strong. If you are successful in getting your representatives to either sponsor or write their own bill to this effect, I will support it and encourage my representatives to do the same. But I am not optimistic. JMHO

bblhd672 wrote:

nlyric wrote: Charles, I thought I had responded already but guess I neglected to hit submit.
I certainly can not say it "will" pass. But I do believe if the NRA fully supports it, it has a very good chance. And like I've said none if they don't....
Reasons that support that have been already stated by some. Republican platform, control, and a governor who would surely sign it.
Would rather see the goal out weigh the glory and discourse for a change.

You are assuming that all of the Republicans in Austin have the same degree of interest in expanding gun rights as we do.

Exactly, you must understand, that even conservative representatives, have a segment of their constituents who are not conservative, or at least not as conservative as we may like. Their positions are tenuous, and they will have a lot more on their plates, besides expanding the rights of LTC holders.

TexasTornado wrote:I'd be curious as to the % of registered voters amongst LTC holders as compared to the general public. We might be a numerically small minority, but I'd wager we aren't as small of a minority at the polls.

I don't know if those stats are available, but I would imagine that not only do we register to vote, but we actually do vote. I think that is one of the reasons, we have won so many seats in the Texas Senate and House. Unfortunately, in large urban areas, the left still manages a decent turnout, like Houston, Dallas, etc. so there are still a lot of dissenting voices to contend with, who have some influence, not only in voters, but business owners, who rely on the labor force in those areas. And as I stated, even our best allies, in office, have to bow to those who don't feel that 2A is #1 priority, every session. There are a lot of issues that have to be decided each session, and so not all of our LTC concerns get the attention we would like.
That's not to say that we don''t continue to write, call, and email our representatives, help campaign against those who are in opposition, or do anything different than we have been doing. We can't let our guard down, or underestimate our opposition.

TXBO wrote:

Jusme wrote:We have won a lot of elections, but, we haven't completely won the hearts and minds of those who still have to fear a left leaning constituency. Even among some of the most staunch conservative members, there is still a lingering .... call it doubt, fear, old school thinking, whatever, that still sees LTC holders as a fringe portion of society. The last session with "in your face" demonstrations, by those who shall not be named, has not helped to sway those attitudes. We have consistently demonstrated our good intentions, good will, and good behavior over the past 20+ years, but old ideas die hard.
Couple that with the fact, that while these things matter to LTC holders, we only represent a small portion of the population. So even other gun owners, who are not LTC holders, aren't greatly concerned about carry restrictions.

So what happens, when more legislation is proposed to "free up" LTC holders, the response is, "What do they want now?' These battles are not won easily, and must be approached with an understanding of the opposition, even if it is a passive opposition. JMHO

You've outlined one of the two main reasons that doing things to increase the number of LTC holders should be a priority.

1) More LTC holders have more political clout.
2) More LTC holders make Texas a safer place.

I fully agree, I'm doing my part, Mrs. Jusme has agreed to take the class this fall.

And I think there may need to be a push to better educate everyone, both those who are considering it, and the opposition, so that they understand exactly what is required, to be come an LTC holder, and to further demonstrate our record as law abiding, cool under pressure, and how much of an asset we are to to the law abiding public. Not necessarily as acting security guards, but those who may be willing to step up when needed.
So many people either don't become LTC holders, or become opposed to the idea, not because of anyone's actions, but because of misinformation.

We have won a lot of elections, but, we haven't completely won the hearts and minds of those who still have to fear a left leaning constituency. Even among some of the most staunch conservative members, there is still a lingering .... call it doubt, fear, old school thinking, whatever, that still sees LTC holders as a fringe portion of society. The last session with "in your face" demonstrations, by those who shall not be named, has not helped to sway those attitudes. We have consistently demonstrated our good intentions, good will, and good behavior over the past 20+ years, but old ideas die hard.
Couple that with the fact, that while these things matter to LTC holders, we only represent a small portion of the population. So even other gun owners, who are not LTC holders, aren't greatly concerned about carry restrictions.

So what happens, when more legislation is proposed to "free up" LTC holders, the response is, "What do they want now?' These battles are not won easily, and must be approached with an understanding of the opposition, even if it is a passive opposition. JMHO

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I strongly believe that 30.06 / 30.07 signs should not have force of law for a property owner who has decided to put out an open invite for the general public to visit their property (aka a business owner). I can (barely) buy the argument that my personal prejudices should trump the god given rights of people that have been personally invited into my home, but once I have opened my property to the general public, I should not have the right to use the arrest power of the government to enforce my personal preferences on how they think, speak, dress, or do anything else that is not explicitly illegal in the first place. If I have put out an open invitation and then dislike the fact that someone mentioned their support of Hillary or a dislike of Trump, I can tell them to leave. But I shouldn't be able to just call the police and have them arrested or fined unless they refuse to leave. Same goes for their exercise of other rights, including the RKBA.

BUT, this belief of mine is not even fully supported by those on this forum, not to mention the general public. So I will just deal with it as I am allowed to do under current law. I totally understand that the political process is not ideal, and I fully support the need to prioritize our efforts. I will be extremely happy if we can remove all prohibited (publicly owned) locations this session, even if we make no other progress.

The only place that I feel should be treated the same as government property, are hospitals, that accept, Medicare (paid for by me) Medicaid (paid for by me) Obamacare (again, paid for by me) Or if they are designated a County hospital that is required to accept patients who have none of the listed ways to pay (once again paid for by me)
I understand your argument for property owners doing business with the public, and in most if not all cases are licensed in some way by the government, not being able to post signs prohibiting LTC holders from bringing their handguns into their business. But,I believe that government should play almost no role in determining how a business owner should conduct his business, in relation to whom he refuses service. Whether it is LTC holders or refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple. That being said, I think that Charles is right in that, we would have almost certainly gotten none of the laws passed regarding LTC, if it weren't for giving in to the demand for business owners, to be allowed to prohibit carrying.JMHO

TXBO wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:....
DPS must pay the FBI $23 for every fingerprint background check run on applicants. This is a significant cost to DPS that should be removed in my opinion.
......

It would be very interesting to know how many applicants the fingerprinting has prohibited from getting their license. I bet the number is extremely low. I would think that would be good data to remove the requirement and the cost.

According to Lott's statistics, a $20 decrease in cost would raise the percentage of license holders in Texas by about 1%. With a population of almost 27 Million, an additional 270,000 law abiding citizens would become license holders. That also ignores the bounce for simplifying the process. That's approximately a 25% increase in license holders. I would consider that a major victory.

I doubt that the fingerprinting requirement will ever be removed, especially when we want reciprocity with other states. The FBI love their fingerprint database, and for good reason. I have three separate sets of my prints on file, one when I became a LEO, one when I got my CHL, and one when I got my security clearance.
While the numbers Mr. Lott has put forward may represent an overall, nationwide, cost to permit holder ratio, I don't think that a $20 decrease in cost, will equate to a 270,000 increase in the numbers LTC holders. The numbers are going up at an astonishing rate, now, due to the recent events across the country, and around the world, as people wake up to the failures of the current administration to protect it's citizens, and the fear that if Hitlery is elected, that trend will continue. In short, I think that the political climate has more to do with increasing numbers, than the licensing costs. I think that the cost of firearms is much more prohibitive, for those with a more meager income.
A 10% overall reduction in the cost of firearms would in my opinion have a much greater impact on permit holders. But with demand at an all time high, the odds of that happening are slim for a while.
I do agree that the costs should be reduced, for licensing, simply because the process was never meant to be a profitable endeavor. JMHO

steveincowtown wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote: I think that now that we already have OC, doing something about prohibited places will have a bigger impact on the lives of people who are already licensed than either it OR Constitutional Carry will have on the lives of people who have chosen at this point to not get a license to carry a firearm.

TAM, although I agree with most all of your 10,000+ post I have to take exception here. The reason so called Constitutional Carry is so important is because of all the folks who simply can't "choose" to get a license. I have a personal friend who wants her LTC. She is qualified, she simply does not have the money to do it. I offered to pay for it, and she simply doesn't have the time.

She is a single mother, broke up with a nutcase, and he has threaten to kill her. Why should money or time be a barrier in restricting her God given right to defend herself?

She is a Saint, a beautiful person, and yet can only sleep with a gun under her pillow and not carry it on her person right now.

I get it. Paying for an LTC wasn't a big deal for me. Probaly wasn't for you either. I own a great collection of guns that is probaly equal to what you forgot you have bought.

The Second Ammendment should not come with a price tag, none of the others do.

I too wish that there was a way that we could all carry all the time without the time and money required. But as TAM stated, where there's a will, there's a way. I'm sure several of us will be happy to donate to LTC classes, ammo, childcare costs, and licensing fees. There was thread on here about LTC classes held during the week, and there's a local one near me that have Sunday classes. Let your friend know that we are a community, and will help in any way we can.
I think Charles has a much better feel for the political climate in the Texas Legislature, so I will defer to his thoughts regarding trying to push for Constitutional Carry. If we aim too high and miss, future favorable legislation could be much harder to have sympathetic ears.

steveincowtown wrote:

Jusme wrote:

I have no doubt that it could work in Texas just as well as it does other places, however, even with the Super Majority, in the House and Senate, a lot of them only won their office by the slimmest of margins, and have constituents, who don't put the Second Amendment at the top of their priority list. We have won a lot of victories, and will continue to do so, but I think that a full on assault, pushing for Constitutional Carry, will result in some of the more liberal Republicans, to back away, and bow to pressure from the left, in their districts.

Jusme, most who were elected in Texas in 2014 won by HUGE margins. I can count on one hand the elections for State Senate and House that were even close:

http://elections.sos.state.tx.us/elchist175_state.htm


As to there being some liberal Republican's that have infiltrated the ranks, you will get no argument from me there! I don't feel like we should let it Straus us out too much though.

What worries me I guess more than the people who are in office now, is that with the huge influx of people moving into the State, especially in the north Texas area, is that they came from other states, not so right leaning, while there may be a significant number who came here due to the fact that we are more 2A friendly, just as many if not more are following jobs. Those people can definitely sway the vote the other way, in some of the more affluent suburbs north of DFW. Politicians, no matter how right wing they may be, realize that there positions are tenuous if there voting base leans more left.
I agree that there may not be a better time to try to get legislation passed in our favor, there is still a large contingent of people who don't see things like we do, and their priorities lie elsewhere. My point is that, I think if we push too much, too soon, it will backfire, not only for the legislation, but for representatives who are trying to keep their jobs. Again JMHO.

steveincowtown wrote:I am always left scratching my head when in Texas we have:

Super Majority in Senate
Super Majority in House
A Governor who is arguably the most pro gun in our State's History
A Republican State Platform that specifically calls for Constitutional Carry while retaining licensing for Reciprocity purposes

And we still talk about "Political Capital." How about our elected Republican public servants just start acting as such?

My agenda would be:

- 30.06/30.07 have no force of law without oral notification of Trespass (before anyone jumps on me, look at all the states where this is the case)

- Strike the requirement to show CHL/ inform. Have you watch the news lately? There are to many fake cops out there right now. Imagine you get pulled over by one of these guys, had over your ID/CHL, he takes your gun, etc. Doesn't sound like a situation that would end well.

- So called "Constitutional Carry." If there are any amongst us that don't think CC can work in Texas, please show me examples of how this has been a problem in other states that have it, and then as a follow up explain why Texans aren't as good of people as the residents of those states.


JMHO

I have no doubt that it could work in Texas just as well as it does other places, however, even with the Super Majority, in the House and Senate, a lot of them only won their office by the slimmest of margins, and have constituents, who don't put the Second Amendment at the top of their priority list. We have won a lot of victories, and will continue to do so, but I think that a full on assault, pushing for Constitutional Carry, will result in some of the more liberal Republicans, to back away, and bow to pressure from the left, in their districts.

While Concealed Carry has been around a long time, it was "out of sight and out of mind" until Open Carry brought it back to the forefront, add Campus Carry to the mix, and you can already see the push back. If we can get prohibited places reduced or eliminated, that will be the bigger victory in this next session. JMHO.