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txpilot wrote:I tend to wonder if the off-duty officer was even legal to disarm. According to GC 411.207, it appears the authority to disarm is only a peace officer acting in the lawful discharge of OFFICIAL DUTIES. I somehow don't think an off-duty "second job" would qualify as official duties.

Sec. 411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. (a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual.

NTexCopRetired wrote:A peace officer, in the State of Texas, who is outside his jurisdiction may arrest, without warrant, a person who commits an offense within the officer's presence or view, if the offense is a felony, a violation of Penal Code - Chapter 42 (DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND RELATED OFFENSES) or Penal Code - Chapter 49 (INTOXICATION AND ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE OFFENSES), or a breach of the peace.

canvasbck wrote:

mojo84 wrote:What do you specifically want and expect from the sheriff?

I don't know what I want/expect. I just know that as of right now, I don't have confidence that the situation will be remedied.

I understand, in this litigious society, the reasons why they won't apologize, but to the person who was wronged, an apology from the wrongdoer goes a long ways and sends a message from the wrongdoer to say "lesson learned".

canvasbck wrote:

WildBill wrote:I think the sheriff's response was all that could be expected from him.
He acknowledged that the deputy needed training and would get it.
It would not be proper to admit any wrongdoing or to discuss personnel or disciplinary matters in an email to someone outside the department.
My view is that the bigger mistake is the method that the deputy used to disarm the OP.

Agreed, the deputy's lack of knowledge was addressed right there on the scene. He is now aware that it is NOT in fact illegal for a license holder to carry in a liquor store.

The bigger issue (the one that has danced around in my head for three days now) is the manner he chose to approach this situation. Had I not maintained SA, I would not have seen him coming towards me and would have reacted much differently when he touched my firearm. This could have been a fatal mistake on his part, not to mention the legal battle I would have been in post incident.

Jusme wrote:

canvasbck wrote:Here is the email I sent teh Sheriff this morning:

Sheriff Wagner,
I had an encounter with one of your deputies this past Friday evening that I felt needed to be brought to your attention due to the apparent gaps in the deputy’s training that may need to be addressed.

On Friday evening, 03/11/16 I entered White’s liquor store on highway 6. I was openly carrying a handgun in a kydex hip holster. Deputy <redacted> was behind the counter at the store. While shopping, I noticed Deputy <redacted> coming towards me. At the time I assumed that the deputy was about to check my LTC. Deputy <redacted> approached me from my left side (which happens to be my gun side). Without saying anything, the deputy reached out with both hands and began removing my firearm from the holster. I was surprised that he was disarming me, but moved my arm out of his way and asked what he was doing. The deputy stated that I could not have the firearm in the liquor store as he removed the firearm from my holster. I stated that there were no signs posted at the entrance, but if he was giving me verbal notice, I would put the firearm back in my car. Deputy <redacted> then stated that there were signs posted. I informed him that I was certain that there were not any signs posted as I have been in the store before and always check before entering. The deputy then stated that signs were not needed since it is illegal to carry in a liquor store. I politely informed him that there were no laws prohibiting license holders carrying firearms into a liquor store. Deputy <redacted> then stated that “they get more than 50% of their income from the sale of alcohol”. I then stated that he is mistaken, the 51% law pertains to locations where on premise consumption takes place.

Deputy <redacted> and I then proceeded outside the front door of the store so that he could “show me the signs they have posted”. At this time he still had my firearm in his hands. After allowing Deputy <redacted> sufficient time to read all of the signs on the front of the store, I pointed out the blue TABC sign that prohibits unlicensed possession of a firearm. No 30.07 signs were present nor were there any other signs indicating a prohibition of carry by a license holder.

Once Deputy <redacted> was satisfied that there were in fact no signs, I offered to place the firearm back into my vehicle before going back into the store to complete my purchase. The deputy stated “No, I’ll put it in your car”. As we approached my vehicle, I informed the deputy that my wife was sitting on the driver’s side of the vehicle and I requested him to place the firearm on the passenger side. He stated that he would just hand the firearm to my wife. I expressed apprehension concerning him handing off the still loaded firearm to her and requested that he allow me to remove my holster so he could place the firearm into the holster before handing it off. He agreed and I removed my holster and handed it to the deputy. Deputy <redacted> placed the firearm into the holster and then handed the holstered firearm to her. In the process of handing it to her, he swept my wife’s face with the muzzle of my holstered firearm (this was relayed to me later by my wife, I did not witness it myself). Deputy <redacted> never cleared the weapon, nor did he ever ask for identification from myself or my wife.

I am concerned about numerous aspects regarding this encounter. The two most troublesome aspects, from my perspective, of this encounter are:
1. This individual is representing BCSO while working an extra job in a liquor store without learning the laws that are applicable to liquor stores. I do not expect law enforcement to memorize the entire criminal code, but I would think that an officer would learn the laws that were applicable to specific situations that he has placed himself into. At the least, I would think that an officer would be sure of laws that he is taking physical action on.
2. The deputy placed himself into an extremely dangerous situation when he took it upon himself to reach out with both hands to remove a firearm from a holster. Had I not been compliant, or had I not recognized him as a LEO, the situation could have escalated extremely rapidly and would have had tragic results. Deputy <redacted> is extremely fortunate that I am not someone who had hostile intentions, nor am I one of those more fanatical 2nd amendment proponents. Had deputy <redacted> chosen to engage one of those other types of individuals, the situation would have ended much differently.
I appreciate you taking the time to hear my concerns and I am confident that you will take appropriate steps to address the issues outlined. Please feel free to contact me if you need any further clarification on this matter.

<signature redacted>

And his reply.....

Mr. <redacted>,

Training on the laws on open carry have been held for BCSO employees. I will check to make sure that Deputy <redacted> gets a refresher course on the laws.

Sincerely,

Charles Wagner, Sheriff
Brazoria County, Texas

I have to say, I'm underwhelmed

Yeah me too, that doesn't even begin to cover the issues, and there should have been at least an apology. The Sheriff, if not already fully versed on the law, should have taken the time to read up on it and provide you with a list of items the deputy should be given a refresher course.

You stated that this occurred in a different county that where the Deputy was working off duty, maybe a similar letter to the Sheriff of the county where this occurred, might be in order. It sounds a lot like the sheriff you wrote hopes to sweep this under the rug. It's your call, but these are the type of situations I feel that LTC holders should make sure get addressed. Not by in your face demonstrations, but polite professionalism that you have already displayed.

Thanks for the update.

canvasbck wrote:Here is the email I sent teh Sheriff this morning:

Sheriff Wagner,
I had an encounter with one of your deputies this past Friday evening that I felt needed to be brought to your attention due to the apparent gaps in the deputy’s training that may need to be addressed.

On Friday evening, 03/11/16 I entered White’s liquor store on highway 6. I was openly carrying a handgun in a kydex hip holster. Deputy <redacted> was behind the counter at the store. While shopping, I noticed Deputy <redacted> coming towards me. At the time I assumed that the deputy was about to check my LTC. Deputy <redacted> approached me from my left side (which happens to be my gun side). Without saying anything, the deputy reached out with both hands and began removing my firearm from the holster. I was surprised that he was disarming me, but moved my arm out of his way and asked what he was doing. The deputy stated that I could not have the firearm in the liquor store as he removed the firearm from my holster. I stated that there were no signs posted at the entrance, but if he was giving me verbal notice, I would put the firearm back in my car. Deputy <redacted> then stated that there were signs posted. I informed him that I was certain that there were not any signs posted as I have been in the store before and always check before entering. The deputy then stated that signs were not needed since it is illegal to carry in a liquor store. I politely informed him that there were no laws prohibiting license holders carrying firearms into a liquor store. Deputy <redacted> then stated that “they get more than 50% of their income from the sale of alcohol”. I then stated that he is mistaken, the 51% law pertains to locations where on premise consumption takes place.

Deputy <redacted> and I then proceeded outside the front door of the store so that he could “show me the signs they have posted”. At this time he still had my firearm in his hands. After allowing Deputy <redacted> sufficient time to read all of the signs on the front of the store, I pointed out the blue TABC sign that prohibits unlicensed possession of a firearm. No 30.07 signs were present nor were there any other signs indicating a prohibition of carry by a license holder.

Once Deputy <redacted> was satisfied that there were in fact no signs, I offered to place the firearm back into my vehicle before going back into the store to complete my purchase. The deputy stated “No, I’ll put it in your car”. As we approached my vehicle, I informed the deputy that my wife was sitting on the driver’s side of the vehicle and I requested him to place the firearm on the passenger side. He stated that he would just hand the firearm to my wife. I expressed apprehension concerning him handing off the still loaded firearm to her and requested that he allow me to remove my holster so he could place the firearm into the holster before handing it off. He agreed and I removed my holster and handed it to the deputy. Deputy <redacted> placed the firearm into the holster and then handed the holstered firearm to her. In the process of handing it to her, he swept my wife’s face with the muzzle of my holstered firearm (this was relayed to me later by my wife, I did not witness it myself). Deputy <redacted> never cleared the weapon, nor did he ever ask for identification from myself or my wife.

I am concerned about numerous aspects regarding this encounter. The two most troublesome aspects, from my perspective, of this encounter are:
1. This individual is representing BCSO while working an extra job in a liquor store without learning the laws that are applicable to liquor stores. I do not expect law enforcement to memorize the entire criminal code, but I would think that an officer would learn the laws that were applicable to specific situations that he has placed himself into. At the least, I would think that an officer would be sure of laws that he is taking physical action on.
2. The deputy placed himself into an extremely dangerous situation when he took it upon himself to reach out with both hands to remove a firearm from a holster. Had I not been compliant, or had I not recognized him as a LEO, the situation could have escalated extremely rapidly and would have had tragic results. Deputy <redacted> is extremely fortunate that I am not someone who had hostile intentions, nor am I one of those more fanatical 2nd amendment proponents. Had deputy <redacted> chosen to engage one of those other types of individuals, the situation would have ended much differently.
I appreciate you taking the time to hear my concerns and I am confident that you will take appropriate steps to address the issues outlined. Please feel free to contact me if you need any further clarification on this matter.

<signature redacted>

And his reply.....

Mr. <redacted>,

Training on the laws on open carry have been held for BCSO employees. I will check to make sure that Deputy <redacted> gets a refresher course on the laws.

Sincerely,

Charles Wagner, Sheriff
Brazoria County, Texas

I have to say, I'm underwhelmed