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thetexan wrote:It has been my experience that most regulations do not need "interpretation". Most regs are well written and do not require analytical gymnastics to understand. But many times the simplicity of the rule conflicts with what
we WANT the rules to say.
tex

thetexan wrote:By the way, most property considered public is actually private. All of these are private property.

The Exxon world headquarters and it parking lots and grounds.

The gas station on the corner.

The bank

Etc

Just because you as the public can go on their property doesn't make it public property. You are there as a personal guest of the owner with his effective consent which he may give or retract at his direction and pleasure.

tex

If you don't own the property then it belongs to someone else.

tiger1279 wrote:If this has been covered already, my apologies - I missed it. My question is this: do the signs being posted on the doors of the gas station store/cashier building prohibiting carry, both open and concealed, extend to the pump area as well? Can I pump gas while carrying if I never enter the building? I guess this is the old premises vs. property issue. Sorry if this has been talked about before.

Archery1 wrote:

Solaris wrote:

Archery1 wrote:

WildBill wrote:I am a believer in common sense, but I think this thread is about the law. There are different laws about posting signs on a property and carrying on a premise. If you read about 30.06 postings they talk about property.
My common sense tells me that you can not enter a premise without first entering the property.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/7/30/30.06

Thanks, WildBill. That's exactly how I have been expressing it. I can enter the property and stay there up until I am told to leave or see the Notice telling me to leave. Up until that point, I am not trespassing and won't be unless I fail to leave. My common sense told me this too, as that's why I was responding to others who suggested the Notices were effective notice just by being posted. My common sense tells me that if I have not been told or cannot see the sign, the property owner has failed to communicate the message to me properly.

This is incorrect. If the sign is lawfully posted, you are trespassing whether you see it or not. Same for 30.05, purple paint, whatever. There are business that post 30.06 and hire O/D LEO to patrol. If they see you with a gun, you get arrested. Tell it to the judge you did not see the sign.

eta

I use fence & purple paint on my ranch. Game Warden sees you, he arrests you. GW knows my property is legally posted, he does not care if you saw signs, paint or even know about it.

Correct, now we get right back to "conspicuously posted".

Your 30:05 is not that applicable, because your fence is also effective notice, and someone would have to cross it.

(2) "Notice" means:

(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;

(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;

(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

(D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:
- See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... Zk6X6.dpuf

Archery1 wrote:

pt145ss wrote:True story...

There is a gas station down the street from my house, after 1/1/16 they posted both 30.06 and 30.07 (both compliant) on the glass next to the entrance door. They have since taken down the 30.06 and only have 30.07 posted. By all means this is effective notice.

Question, are the pumps, sidewalks, and public entering driveways off limits because there is a 30.07 sign on the entrance door?

2, Last week, an employee (I assume) in their infinite wisdom decided that they would park a hand truck with firewood right in front of the 30.07. It’s been there ever since. The sign is posted according to 30.07 but with the hand truck in the way, is it effective notice? Some may see it, if they are looking for it.

Well, this is why I am wondering about the property v. premise issue a bit. I have common sense I can fall back on, but I also know that way back the word "premise" was debated and adopted for very specific case law backing, of which word adoption, I believe a very prominent member here was part of such discussion on the legislation surrounding this word use. That's what gave us specific meaning to buildings v. parking lots. What I would like to see as an answer, is that if the sign say "may not enter this property", that's it. That property, building, to which the sign is attached and referencing, leaving all other property unposted.

Archery1 wrote:

WildBill wrote:

Archery1 wrote:

WildBill wrote:

Archery1 wrote:Ambiguity of notice does provide a defense, but as a gun carrier, so does responsibility provide us a duty. There's nothing written that says you have to know every possible ambiguous scenario that surrounds your legal notice or lack thereof to carry on personal property, but there does exist some duty to become educated on where you might carry. I might hunt a vast open and non-fenced space, but I better know the boundaries between my hunt and off-limits areas that are not my hunt unless I want to explain my actions to others in Court.

I am not sure of the meaning of this statement. Can you clarify or give an example that explains what you mean?

See the example of the gas pump. Yes, if they post it on the door and not the entrance, you don't have good notice if you can't see it. If they call the cops and you get ticketed, that's your defense against the ticket. Is that automatic? Well, think of what the judge might say: "You are the one wanting to carry a gun on private property, you were trained what the signs looks like, you know they typically post them at the door, so why didn't you look there then pump?" So, what I mean is that I have a good defense that I can't look everywhere for signs before entering, but I also have a prosecution in that I do know where to look.

If the store owner tells you that you can't carry or calls the cops leave the store and you won't be arrested.

Yes, that would be courteous and required absent a sign. If we are going by adherence to the sign in our scenario, then he doesn't need to tell me anything, the sign created the trespass.

Archery1 wrote:

WildBill wrote:

Archery1 wrote:Ambiguity of notice does provide a defense, but as a gun carrier, so does responsibility provide us a duty. There's nothing written that says you have to know every possible ambiguous scenario that surrounds your legal notice or lack thereof to carry on personal property, but there does exist some duty to become educated on where you might carry. I might hunt a vast open and non-fenced space, but I better know the boundaries between my hunt and off-limits areas that are not my hunt unless I want to explain my actions to others in Court.

I am not sure of the meaning of this statement. Can you clarify or give an example that explains what you mean?

See the example of the gas pump. Yes, if they post it on the door and not the entrance, you don't have good notice if you can't see it. If they call the cops and you get ticketed, that's your defense against the ticket. Is that automatic? Well, think of what the judge might say: "You are the one wanting to carry a gun on private property, you were trained what the signs looks like, you know they typically post them at the door, so why didn't you look there then pump?" So, what I mean is that I have a good defense that I can't look everywhere for signs before entering, but I also have a prosecution in that I do know where to look.

Archery1 wrote:Ambiguity of notice does provide a defense, but as a gun carrier, so does responsibility provide us a duty. There's nothing written that says you have to know every possible ambiguous scenario that surrounds your legal notice or lack thereof to carry on personal property, but there does exist some duty to become educated on where you might carry. I might hunt a vast open and non-fenced space, but I better know the boundaries between my hunt and off-limits areas that are not my hunt unless I want to explain my actions to others in Court.