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G26ster wrote:[ ...what is wrong with asking those native born Americans who might have never taken an oath of allegiance to so state, and those that have, to reaffirm, with the Pledge of Allegiance

Because they shouldn't have to?

Taking an oath for citizenship or civil or military service is a whole different ballgame. Hopefully the one saying the oath understands the seriousness and will act accordingly.

Note that my main point on the Pledge has to do with the frequency of saying it, though I think it could be skipped entirely and the National Anthem used instead. It's not about patriotism, it's about doing something that has real meaning.

Congress says the Pledge daily when in session. How's that working for us? Just think how bad Congress would be if they didn't say the Pledge... Thanks to the Pledge, they probably focus a lot more on the well being of the country than their respective political parties, lobbyists, and donors. Really? Maybe "saying the pledge" and "taking the pledge" are two different things(?). How do you know which one a Senator or Congressman is doing?

mojo84 wrote:What some consider brainwashing, others consider instilling values and principles.

Your progressive buddies have pretty much ruined the country through moral and fiscal irresponsibility. . It's just that many are in denial. The federal debt is just the tip of the iceberg. The attack on pride and patriotism is just one more step in the destruction.

The kids can get patriotism from history and social studies class and, hopefully, from reinforcement at home. They have plenty of incentive to be patriotic without the need to chant something on command like they do in North Korea. Ask some kid what the pledge means to them...

It's awfully hard to use common sense and not go off on tangents or get personal, isn't it?

mojo84 wrote: If you don't want to say it, don't. Just like saying a prayer, if you don't want to pray, don't. Why try to convince others to conform to you? The fact we have the choice is one of the great things about our country and what makes me want to say the Pledge.

Lots of luck with choosing not to, especially for the kids at school. I always do the salute but frequently skip saying the words.

And I certainly agree about our country's greatness (and don't feel that it needs to be made great again) - all the more reason to skip the brainwashing like some countries do.

Jusme wrote:

RicoTX wrote:Dont mean to hijack, but Im curious... when I was a kid we removed our hats during the national anthem but did not put our hand over our heart. I have since learned the etiquette was changed before then to suggest that motion, but we never did that in my area. Now some people are calling others out because they don't do it either. I don't care one way or another, I still don't do it because that's not how I learned it, but what are yalls thoughts and how did you learn it?

On a side note, I did not know the original salute to the flag during pledge until recently. PC even way back in the 1940s. Germany and Italy did it that way too... so we changed.

I'm the same,way, hand over the heart was for the Pledge of Allegiance, hat in hand, hands to our sides for the Anthem. I don't know when the etiquette changed, if it did, but I still follow that policy.

Apparently few countries have something like a pledge of alligiance and even fewer do it frequently like we do. I wonder why(?). I suspect others are just as proud of their homelands but don't feel the need to profess it so frequently. If we just said it yesterday, does it make sense to do it again today? Isn't once a year enough for the pledge???

bblhd672 wrote:I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. (yes, I know I left out the words "under God", keep reading)

Many people say it's just a piece of cloth, what's the big deal?
Well, it is a big deal, at least to me, because of the words in the Pledge of Allegiance above: "and to the Republic for which it stands". The flag is a symbol of our Constitutional Republic, of the values which ALL American citizens and those who desire to become American citizens should aspire to: "one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
When Americans, and those desiring to be Americans, look at the flag they should see the symbol of a nation that offers liberty and justice for all peoples who come together for a common cause.

Yes, all you say is true but what does it have to do with flags on fire engines?

And then there's the Pledge. We say the Pledge frequently although it seems like once a year or special occasions should be enough. And I think the wording could be better: leave out "under god" (as you have done), leave out "indivisible" (civil war reminder), and leave out reference to the flag (it's the country we're pledging our allegiance to, not the banner). Personally, I'd much rather sing the National Anthem than say the Pledge. Maybe fire engines could play the Anthem instead of a siren(?).

By the way, I consider myself to be a good citizen and neighbor and have honorably served so I don't need lectures about patriotism. But I do feel myself becoming more critical of the certain traditions and status quo as I grow older and have more time to think about it. JMHO

I don't see the point in fire trucks continuing to have flags after we toasted the first responders of New York City. I assume most fire departments around here are American and are as patriotic as I am so I don't need to see their expression of it. I can see sporting a flag for special events such as parades or the anniversary of 9/11 but not for the routine run. Let's be realistic.

For others who think flag waving is neat: how about volunteering or donating to a worthwhile cause instead?