TexasCHLforum.com

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

How should a CHLer properly handle this? I always thought-"no you can't search me. No I will not go anywhere, but I will stay right here. I am now calling the police and they can handle the situation." Is that wrong?

As for store security.... again... the store has a need to prevent theft. If I was stopped by LP, and they wanted to search or detain me, I would ask them to call the police. I would absolutely not allow anyone to search me or sequester me in a back room. But, I'm happy to stand quietly in a public place while the police are called.

This exactly. Is this the best method of handling the situation? What if they then put their hands on me if I refuse a search or moving to a different location (again this plainly assumes these are not LEOs)

To bring it back to topic, again as a CHLer is this best practice?

jmra wrote:

Charlies.Contingency wrote:

Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

We've gotten off track somewhere...

"If you didn't pay for it... and I ask you for a receipt, you're still comparing me to a Nazi?"

No, not at all.

My last post was of course if you did pay for it.

Remember, I'm not a fan of thieves, but principle...

And keep smiling, believe it or not, I'm on your side.

Okay, can we get this straight then. Whether or not you paid for it, whether or not there is proof, or lack there of...

Asking for a receipt, can the store owner not logically believe that the property is his, and ask for confirmation as to whether or not the individual paid for the merchandise? I see it as in their right, if there is any for him to question it at all, a store owner owns the store and what's in it, and does not need to prove that the property in the store is his. A visitor should have to prove that what he is taking is rightfully his. (We'll avoid talking about things that the store doesn't own and crap.) But something that the store sells, the shopper has in their possession, whether straight from a register, from the register and then after walking around, or straight from the isles of the store.

(I think I edited that post, I don't remember it like that, but who knows, I'm distracted right now. Typing with a fractured hand is making it hard to concentrate!)

{Are you just being a Devil's advocate? You're final statement could be interpreted that way.}

You are making some incorrect assumptions. Everything in the store belongs to you until I pay for it. Once I pay for it and I have a receipt, the items and the receipt are my property and you have no right to them once they are mine. If you think you have proof that I stole something, stop and detain me. But when the police get there and I show them the receipt and you are proven to be wrong you are going to pay dearly.

jmra wrote:If you are going to own a store I suggest you learn what you can and can not legally do, if you plan to own the store very long that is. If I'm in a hurry and the Walmart greeter asks if they can see my receipt I simply say "no thanks". The only time they will bat an eye is if the alarm sounds on the way out. I've never had an issue.
Now I'm a member of Costco. As a member I agree to let them check my receipt on the way out. No problem with that because I agreed to it from the get go. I have no such agreement with any other establishment.

gringo wrote:Are you saying every search is reasonable, regardless of the facts? Because it sure sounds like it when you ignore the FACT he didn't steal anything to justify searching him without consent.

You are on a fishing expedition. You are taking one line out of context. If you see me tuck a steak under my shirt, say so. If you think I have stolen from you, say so. If you think there is merchandise in my cart I didn't pay for, say so. Then we go through the process. I am not subject to detainment, searches, etc., on a whim. Accuse me, leave me alone or ask me to leave. Those are your only options. Follow the law and say you have probable cause and call the police. I'll wait. If you just come up and demand to see a receipt without cause, well, you can pound sand. If you think you can detain me without reasonable cause, you are in violation of the law. If you call the police, you better be prepared to convince them you have probable cause, because without it they let me walk. Did you read the part where I said I would show a receipt? Unless I got attitude.

BTW, I am done on this thread. If you think you have more detain, search, etc., power as a merchant than law enforcement, you are mistaken.

Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

We've gotten off track somewhere...

"If you didn't pay for it... and I ask you for a receipt, you're still comparing me to a Nazi?"

No, not at all.

My last post was of course if you did pay for it.

Remember, I'm not a fan of thieves, but principle...

And keep smiling, believe it or not, I'm on your side.

Abraham wrote:At this point, this thread reminds me of those in power who insist: Show me your papers schweinhund.

You paid for your purchases.

The merchant, whose inefficiency insists you prove your innocence regarding your purchases before you leave is the salient issue.

Arrest me.

Then wait for the fall out...

gljjt wrote:Its called mine until you prove I stole it.

jmra wrote:

Charlies.Contingency wrote:

jmra wrote:

Charlies.Contingency wrote:

Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

Fair enough.

Here's the deal.

I paid for my purchases. After that exchange the items are mine. Not the stores

The store employee doesn't have a right to assume I'm a thief by their actions of insisting I show a receipt.

I paid for my purchases. I don't live in 1960's East Berlin.

I'm not being rude if I simply walk past them.

If, they feel compelled to arrest me for walking past them, do so.

See what happens after that...

I guess the principle is mind boggling to some that you don't have to be disrespected by the receipt checking scenario. It would seem some are in favor of being considered a thief and a jerk for not meekly giving in to something rather degrading.

But hey, if you don't mind being treated like a thief, well enjoy...

If you were to have something from a place of business of mine, and try to leave with it, without any way of proving it's yours or that you bought it, it would not end well for you. If you paid for it, that's fine, but you don't need to have merchandise of my business in my business, without a receipt showing that you own it. Unless you do, everything in that store that's mine, is mine. You can't just walk into a convenient store with pockets full of snickers, and not expect trouble. As far as anybody's concerned, it's stealing unless you can prove their yours. Inventory could be checked later, but if there's no evidence in your favor, sucks to be you.

So by me asking people to show a receipt, that's treating them like a thief? So I should never ask for a receipt, because I will hurt somebody's feelings? That will get me far in business when people are ripping me off...

I reserve the right to ask you for a receipt, but remember that I reserve the right to defend my business from thieves. You're not a thief if you show that it's your receipt should I feel the need to. Not having the right to make you prove it is ridiculous. How then can you prove theft? You don't have to show any receipt, it's yours because you say it is, that should be good enough, right? I don't think so, if it ever comes to that, you'll see stores where you can't shop, and you have to pay for an item up front, so you couldn't just claim it's yours and leave... Is the only way to prove theft to have camera's watching everything you do everywhere your at, because you didn't steal anything unless we have 100% solid evidence? That's a load of... Sorry if we disagree, but that's the way I see it.

Guilty until proven innocent.

It's called it's not your property if it belongs to the store, how about that? Is it that hard to comprehend? I go into a store, and I pick up a rolex and nobody sees, who does it belong to? Me or the store? If it belongs to the store, it belongs to the store until you leave with proof of purchase in my opinion, otherwise everything is yours as soon as you pick it up, because nobody can prove otherwise.

Once I have paid for something it is mine and no longer yours. Unless you have proof I stole it, it's none of your business. I don't have to prove I didn't steal it, you have to prove I did.

Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

This debate is fun. And, remember, we're not talking about Sams/Costco. No membership agreements here.

Let's assume I've paid for my purchases, have my receipt, but your store isn't efficient enough to have noticed. That's your problem, not mine. I've done the right thing...

Next, before exiting the store, I'm demanded my receipt to show proof of what I'm walking out of the store with.

I refuse on principle.

You, store owner, call the police.

When they show up and I'm proven innocent, you gonna be inna hepa trouble.

Why should the onus of proving my innocence fall on my shoulders, rather than yours? If you can't be efficient enough in your business practices to be certain I'm a thief, why am I obligated to a degrading search...? That doesn't wash.

Oh, for you that think this is being a drama queen, think again. Get on the cattle car, the train is heading where you don't want to go...

No more than proving I paid for my groceries before leaving the store am I going to put up with this exercise.

At least, not without a fight...

jmra wrote:

Charlies.Contingency wrote:

Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

Fair enough.

Here's the deal.

I paid for my purchases. After that exchange the items are mine. Not the stores

The store employee doesn't have a right to assume I'm a thief by their actions of insisting I show a receipt.

I paid for my purchases. I don't live in 1960's East Berlin.

I'm not being rude if I simply walk past them.

If, they feel compelled to arrest me for walking past them, do so.

See what happens after that...

I guess the principle is mind boggling to some that you don't have to be disrespected by the receipt checking scenario. It would seem some are in favor of being considered a thief and a jerk for not meekly giving in to something rather degrading.

But hey, if you don't mind being treated like a thief, well enjoy...

If you were to have something from a place of business of mine, and try to leave with it, without any way of proving it's yours or that you bought it, it would not end well for you. If you paid for it, that's fine, but you don't need to have merchandise of my business in my business, without a receipt showing that you own it. Unless you do, everything in that store that's mine, is mine. You can't just walk into a convenient store with pockets full of snickers, and not expect trouble. As far as anybody's concerned, it's stealing unless you can prove their yours. Inventory could be checked later, but if there's no evidence in your favor, sucks to be you.

So by me asking people to show a receipt, that's treating them like a thief? So I should never ask for a receipt, because I will hurt somebody's feelings? That will get me far in business when people are ripping me off...

I reserve the right to ask you for a receipt, but remember that I reserve the right to defend my business from thieves. You're not a thief if you show that it's your receipt should I feel the need to. Not having the right to make you prove it is ridiculous. How then can you prove theft? You don't have to show any receipt, it's yours because you say it is, that should be good enough, right? I don't think so, if it ever comes to that, you'll see stores where you can't shop, and you have to pay for an item up front, so you couldn't just claim it's yours and leave... Is the only way to prove theft to have camera's watching everything you do everywhere your at, because you didn't steal anything unless we have 100% solid evidence? That's a load of... Sorry if we disagree, but that's the way I see it.

Guilty until proven innocent.

EEllis wrote:It's kind of funny that this issue creates such emotion in some people. here is a link to a story about a woman who assaulted a greeter at walmart when she was asked for a receipt. The funny thing is she had the receipt.
http://consumerist.com/2011/12/28/walma ... -the-face/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then there was the guy on trial for knocking down a greeter when he "Defended Himself" after a greeter touched him.
http://consumerist.com/2008/03/12/man-o ... t-checker/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is a story about a couple who gave a smack down to a best buy employee who dared ask for a receipt when the couple paid for an item somewhere beside the front checkouts. Since the employee couldn't of seen them pay he asked for a receipt. Big mistake.
http://consumerist.com/2012/12/21/coupl ... t-checker/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




Now I don't think checking receipts are in and of themselves all that effective at stopping thevies. I do think that if a store routinely checks everyones receipt that a sizable amount of potential thieves will decide not to even try. I believe the theory is that while they won't directly catch people stealing theft generally is reduced. Now we don't have access to the numbers that would prove or disprove such belief but it does seem reasonable to me. For all the money these store make they don't have that big a margin on alot of their items. They are forced to charge more money for what they do sell because of theft. If walmart will have to raise prices if the do away with receipt checkers then I would just ass soon they keep them. Those that don't like it why not go to the many nicer places that wont ask for your receipt.

Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

Fair enough.

Here's the deal.

I paid for my purchases. After that exchange the items are mine. Not the stores

The store employee doesn't have a right to assume I'm a thief by their actions of insisting I show a receipt.

I paid for my purchases. I don't live in 1960's East Berlin.

I'm not being rude if I simply walk past them.

If, they feel compelled to arrest me for walking past them, do so.

See what happens after that...

I guess the principle is mind boggling to some that you don't have to be disrespected by the receipt checking scenario. It would seem some are in favor of being considered a thief and a jerk for not meekly giving in to something rather degrading.

But hey, if you don't mind being treated like a thief, well enjoy...

Abraham wrote:MotherBear,

I too am a Sams member.

I have no problem with them reconciling my receipt with my purchases. I agreed to this with my paid membership.

What some seem to find intolerable in my attitude is when I'm forced to this receipt hassle when I'm not a member of their store.

I have to stand by while I'm assumed a potential thief until proven otherwise.

Yes, I could meekly acquiesce to this exercise, but this forum repeatedly discusses the chipping away of our freedoms.

Where are their voices?

Abraham wrote:EEllis,

You said: "Spend your money somewhere else instead of trying to make everyones life harder so you can feel all righteous."

Where did that come from?

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

How is expressing my opinion making everyone's life harder?

Huh?

You have the right to skip my posts, but not to chastise me. You're not a moderator. You're just a member, like me.

I don't think we're on the same page.

Perhaps, I wasn't clear enough.

I don't feel self righteous in the least, I'm just not willing to jump through hoops I don't have to. If don't mind doing so, well, I'm happy for you.

Plus, I would stop and go through the bother if a receipt was requested by an LEO, but not a store clerk. Not any longer.

Without going through a long winded response, I'll post this again:

"Whatever shoplifting/theft problems they have are theirs, not mine. Once money changes hands at the register, their merchandise becomes my personal property and I have no obligation to account for any of it to anyone."

Eellis wrote: If you know they are going to ask and you still go and refuse to follow general accepted behavior then I think there is something improper about your behavior. Plenty of other businesses don't check receipts. That's right you do whatever you want but I think people who are of your opinion that they should ignore receipt checks should not go to establishments that do such checks. They still don't have the right to stop you, but I would hope they would just ban you from the stores for not following they stores policy. Again you can do whatever you want I just believe it's wrong., impolite, way egocentric, however you want to describe it.

Keith B wrote:

EEllis wrote:

Keith B wrote:

EEllis wrote:

This is really not applicable as it was a police officer that was asking for the receipt, not a mall security officer. (plus the guy was being a jerk overall.)

Yeah, no one on hear would ever be a jerk. :eyeroll:

I wasn't trying to say it was exact but I thought it had some relevance

Not really. This topic is about security guards, and not police officers. The police officer in this case would have had the right to totally detain the individual and temporarily hold the items until the individual complied with showing the receipt. I personally would not have had near the patience with the guy that the officer did.

And, yeah, some people are jerks, even some of our forum members.

EEllis wrote:

Charlies.Contingency wrote:

EEllis wrote:

What's that? It's not working for me, but I'm out in the boondocks right now, so I'm out of luck for getting videos to work until Monday anyway.

Link to a youtube vid where I guy acts an idiot refusing to let a cop see his recept