Search found 5 matches

by CHL/LEO
Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:32 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response
Replies: 110
Views: 13264

Re: Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response

Help me understand why this is so?
I thought that I explained it fairly well regarding other departments. The news story about the Irving PD shows what can happen regarding traffic stops.

Over the last few days I have spoken with officers I know from quite a few different agencies (small to mid-size departments) regarding this question. In almost every case they told me that if someone makes a blanket statement of, "I don't have to provide you with that information" they will probably end up going to jail unless the ticket was going to be for speeding - state law mandates that you can't perform a custodial arrest for just a speeding violation by itself.

I'm not here to defend other departments or their officers regarding the policies they enforce. I have a hard enough time explaining to friends and family about some of the goofy things that occur within my own department.

What you said about writing refused vs. all the other work info is correct IF that department or officer will accept refused. If they don't or won't accept it then you're a lot better off just saying you're self-employed or unemployed than getting arrested. Not only would you have that to deal with you would also have to deal with the costs of getting your car out of the pound along with paying for any towing fees.

This is all just my 2¢s worth and take it as such.
by CHL/LEO
Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:23 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response
Replies: 110
Views: 13264

Re: Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response

hey CHL/LEO,

got a question for ya man. If you dont want to respond on the thread feel free to pm me. I don't want to stir the pot here either.

I am kind of curious though. Given that I think those questions are a violation of privacy AND I honestly don't want to offend a police officer much less be impolite with them what would you suggest would be the best way to get out of answering those questions without giving up that information but also without getting the officer's ire up while being respectful at the same time? I'm trying to find the words for that myself but I can't seem to think of what would be appropriate. Can you give me some ideas?
It's not that big of a deal in our department. We just want their current home address and if they refuse to give a work address we (or at least I) would just write refused in the blank. Our department won't allow us to jail a person for traffic offenses unless there are multiple violations, and not even our traffic enforcement officers are going to want to take someone to jail over something silly like this.

Now that being said, I would not advise ever telling an officer "I don't have to give you that information" as lots of departments can jail you on just one traffic offense. Perhaps you saw the recent story regarding Irving PD and their policy of jailing traffic offenders:
Women warn of 'nightmare' traffic stops in Irving

10:11 PM CDT on Thursday, July 3, 2008

By BRETT SHIPP / WFAA-TV

IRVING - Those driving down the road without an insurance card of driver's license with a correct address may find themselves in jail if they get pulled over by Irving police.

In fact, it happened to two women who were pulled over by the same two Irving cops last weekend. Both women said their traffic stops turned into a nightmare.

Mikki Stokes, of Irving, said she was headed to the store for some sour cream when she was stopped by two Irving police officers.

She was initially stopped for not making a complete stop when exiting the parking lot. Stokes second offense was that her current address was not on her Texas driver's license. However, she said she never dreamed that those two minor offenses would result in her being cuffed and stuffed into the backend of a squad car.

"And I was like, 'Is this something that someone with no criminal record would get arrested for, that's never been in trouble for anything [and] that's not a persistent offender?" she said. "I've never been in trouble before. Why are you arresting me for this? And they were like, 'We can arrest you for anything.'"

Two hours later it was Leanna Onstott, of Fort Worth, who became the next target of the same two officers.

"And he said, 'You are under arrest,'" she said of when she was pulled over without have proper proof of insurance in her car. "And he turned me around and put handcuffs on me and I was just like, 'Is this really happening? I mean, can they do this?'"

Onstott was originally pulled over for creeping her car past the pedestrian crossing line.

Neither woman had outstanding warrants or had ever been to jail. Yet, Stokes said she spent two hours behind bars. Onstott said she spent five hours in jail before posting a $600 bond. However, none of that was what Onstott said was the worst part of her arrest.

"They asked me to take off my clothes," she said.

Onstott was then forced to put on jail clothes.

Both women have filed internal affairs complaints against the two Irving officers Daniels and McPherson. While Irving police officials said their concerns are being taken seriously and will be thoroughly investigated, they also said the officers were within their rights to make the arrests.

"The discretion that was used, the decision to make the arrests, it's well within their authority to do that," said David Tull, with the Irving Police Department. ".... I don't know that you could say it's common, but it's not unheard of."

Regardless of how the investigation turns out, both women said their faith in Irving police has been shattered.

"I think if someone can't get them to stop abusing power and pulling people over and doing stuff like this because they think they have the right to, then they don't need to be in that job," Stokes said.

Onstott warned motorists that as long as officers can arrest whoever they want for what they want, Irving is not a desirable place to drive.

"I just want to know why they didn't give me a ticket," she said. "The public needs to know that it's happening and it could happen to them if it happened to me."
Back when I was writing a lot of tickets I would have people tell me that they were "unemployed" or "self-employed" when I asked for that information. I didn't check (or care) whether that information was the truth or not - I just wrote it in and gave them their copies. I can assure you that telling a LEO that you're "self-employed" would go over a lot better with an officer than "I don't have to give you that information" would.
by CHL/LEO
Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:01 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response
Replies: 110
Views: 13264

Re: Got a ticket...strange traffic stop.

Whether you intended it or even realized it, that's an implied threat.
No threat was implied - what I was trying to point out is that if you argue with an officer and try to get him or her to change their mind regarding a TC violation - it's probably not going to happen. In fact, I personally know of no officer who has changed his or her mind because someone is arguing with them that they don't agree with the law, like the law, weren't breaking the law, or whatever reason they have. That's what the court system is for, or getting the legislature to change the laws. Just the fact that someone argues with me on the side of the road doesn't mean I'm going to change my mind as to whether they get a ticket or go to jail.
In your heart of hearts, you probably could name a few officers you've met, who would effect a custodial arrest over a speeding ticket if they didn't like the driver's attitude.
Have I seen people "talk themselves into jail" you bet I have. On our department for us to "jail traffic" someone there has to be five TC violations for that to happen so you really don't see it that much. Whenever you do it's usually because someone just needs to go to jail ie: no DL or expired DL, registration not current, no insurance, speeding, lights burned out, and so on. There are lots (if not most) departments that would arrest you for only one or two of these offenses (other than speeding) so we're pretty lenient in this aspect.
Do you really think any law requires collection of this information? Some might require the officer to request it, but I frankly do not believe any law requires the driver to divulge it.
My experience has taught me that if a department or agency has a policy (such as requesting someone's information) and it is illegal for them to do that, someone usually sues that department or agency and gets a court ruling to prevent them from doing such in the future. In this day and time I can't imagine that someone hasn't tried to challenge this issue, and the courts must have ruled that it is indeed legal for them to collect it.

One thing you might want to remember is just because something is legal (or illegal) in another state or part of the country, doesn't mean it's the same in Texas. A good example are DWI or sobriety checkpoints. In many states they have been ruled legal and in others they have been ruled illegal. There are lots of states with state constitutions that are more restrictive than our federal one - Texas being one of them. There are certain search and seizure laws that we have in Texas that are more restrictive on LE than the federal ones are. DWI checkpoints are the same - you just don't see them in Texas due to court rulings. I understand that might be changing in the future but for now we don't do them.

It's the same with traffic laws and procedures. I've had people tell me plenty of times on traffic stops that, "I'm from Oklahoma, or I'm from Arkansas and we don't have to do that where I'm from." I love kidding with these folks especially when I tell them that the reason that I stopped them was because they ran a stop sign or a red light and they reply something like, "Oh, I'm from Oklahoma." I usually respond with, "Oh, you don't have stop signs in Oklahoma?" After a few seconds it sinks in as to exactly what they said and we both get a good laugh out of it.

In all my years of writing tickets or completing accident reports I've never had anyone say that they weren't going to answer a question I needed to complete a ticket or report. I'll have to check with some of our traffic enforcement officers that write tickets day in and day out to see if they've ever had this happen and what they would do if it did occur.
by CHL/LEO
Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:18 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response
Replies: 110
Views: 13264

Re: Got a ticket...strange traffic stop.

Its been my experience that by the time it goes to court the LEO really has forgotten and will say anything to get the conviction.
For the life of me I can't figure some of you guys out. On this forum I try to address questions that members have submitted, and in doing so perhaps explain why another LEO took the actions he or she did. After I've done that lately it seems then that it all becomes a big conspiracy by LEOs to "tell lies" and "violate citizens rights". If you have question regarding CHL holders and their interactions with LEOs then this forum seems like a good place to post your questions. If you hate every member of the government, think that all LEOs are crooked and will do anything to frame innocent civilians while they continually conspire to figure out ways to violate your civil rights, then perhaps you need to voice those diatribes on another website. That's just my humble opinion as a CHL holder and member of this forum - not as a LEO.

From now on if someone has a specific question about something that happened in the City of Dallas, or that occurred with the Dallas Police Department, feel free to post it and I'll try and address it. You may not like the answers I give, or even agree with why our department does things the way we do. That's your choice, but be aware that arguing with a police officer on the side of the road about why you don't like his city's procedures or policies is probably not going to get you the response that you want.

That individual officer is only enforcing state or municipal laws that they've been directed to enforce. They didn't write the laws or codes and while they can't change them - they do have some leeway as to how they enforce them. There's a reason why the legislature left us that leeway in the Code of Criminal Procedures - not everyone has to or needs to be arrested.

I can not represent all 3,200+ officers on my department but I can give you a general overview of why things are, along with what and why I personally would take (or not take) certain actions. If those are helpful to you, or provide some insight into why we do things, then great. If not - then again that's your choice.
by CHL/LEO
Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:00 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Got a ticket-strange traffic stop-update...Chiefs Response
Replies: 110
Views: 13264

Re: Got a ticket...strange traffic stop.

pt145ss wrote:Yes...got a speeding ticket (the first one in ten years)...and yes I deserved it. A few things that i thought were strange. First, the stop took almost 20 minutes, not sure why but it is the longest traffic stop i have been involved in. When the officer approached, I immediately handed him my DL, CHL, and insurance. Based on previous experiences, I was waiting for the usual questions..."are you carrying" and if so, "where is it"...which never came and I thought that was strange. He told me what I was pulled over for and asked, "Do you have a reason or an excuse for going so fast ?" I thought it was strange that he would ask for an "excuse." I don't believe that LEOs are paid enough to listen to my excuses and i don't think pleading temporarily stupid would help me, so I told him I have no excuse and that I simply was not paying enough attention. He went back to his vehicle and after a very long period of time, he came back to me...without anything in his hands (i.e. no clip board or my DL or anything). He told me he was going to cite me and then he bagan asking me strange questions...questions that i have never been asked before during a traffic stop. He asked if I was employed...and I said yes. He then asked where I was employed and i told him (he pulled out a small note pad and began writing it down). He than asked what my work number was...at this point I stopped and asked why he needed that information. He told me that they needed that information so they have a means of collection in case I did not pay. I thought this was strange because if i do not pay they could simply issue a warrent just like any other department would and it would eventually catch up to me. Again, I just do not think LEOs are paid enough to put up with a jerk on the side of the road so gave him the information asked for...to include my home number.

Is this something normal? Did I have the right to refuse to answer? By refusing, could i have been locked up?

I assume at the point that he said he was giving me a citation, I was technically under arrest and could have invoked my right to remain silent...
Those are normal questions that we ask. Info goes on to your ticket so that if you don't pay our City Marshals will know where to find you at work when they serve warrants. Probably could have been arrested depending upon that particular department's policy.

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