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I don't take it personal and I apologize for snide remarks.

You're a good man wildbill. You keep me on my toes

Ok. The context for what I was stating is the same. And, please, feel free to post you in depth analysis of the statute at your convenience.

You are correct. The word is belief. My mistake. Fear is a belief however, but belief is the word.

FCH wrote:

Mavs00 wrote:...as him just using his fists on you hardly justifies feeling that your life is in "danger"...

I strongly disagree. When a full grown man is coming at you with his fists, you can definitely be killed.

The law requires a reasonable fear requiring an immediately necessary use of deadly force, only when and only to the extent necessary to avoid the injury or death. AS LONG AS THAT FEAR REQUIRING THE IMMEDIATE NECESSITY TO AVOID SERIOUS BODILY INJURY OR DEATH IS REASONABLE it doesn't matter if he's coming at you with a fist, a pillow, a nerf bat, or a feather boa! And would certainly include any instrument of deadly force.

AS LONG AS YOUR FEAR IS REASONABLE.

Solsand wrote:Ok here we go, I'd really like to know what is going to be inside/ outside LTC law-

Hypothetically, a road rage incident of some kind takes place. We both have to stop at the next light. Driver approaches me on foot WITHOUT a weapon, words are exchanged. He decides to turn this into a physical confrontation, takes a swing and I am knocked to the ground. I'm carrying - he could be - so I immediately draw my weapon and tell him he can either be shot or he can back off and freeze. I call 911 and explain the situation and ask for LEO to come out. My question- can I legally hold him at gun point until LEO arrives? Will I likely be arrested for drawing my weapon? Not looking for the "you should have just shot him/ fear for life" answer. I am tying to see if this altercation can be handled in the manner I have just described without having to shoot this guy. I know most of you have probably seen the video of the two ragers in Austin last month, where one guy approached the other with a bat. He could have been shot and the shooter would not likely have been charged. This scenario is not what I am describing...

Thoughts? Advice? Thanks.

As to drawing your weapon...

You can use common or deadly force if you meet the statutory requirements in 9.22, 9.31, and 9.32. If you meet those requirements of the use of deadly force then the display of your gun with the threat of deadly force is permissible. No statute requires you to actualize the use of deadly force. But your use of or threat of the use of deadly force is only available as long as the requirements of 9.22, 9.31, and 9.32 are in place; in other words, as long as you have a reasonable fear of a threat of serious bodily injury or death against you requiring the immediate use of deadly force. Once that disappears your authority given in those statutes goes away.

As to holding a person at gunpoint...

Texas Criminal Procedure states...Art. 14.01. OFFENSE WITHIN VIEW. (a) A peace officer or any other person, may, without a warrant, arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his presence or within his view, if the offense is one classed as a felony or as an offense against the public peace.
(b) A peace officer may arrest an offender without a warrant for any offense committed in his presence or within his view.

see also Officeof the Attorney General, Texas, White Opinion, Opinion No. MW-537, Dec. 22, 1987 (citing Alexander v. United States, 390 F.2d 101 (5th Cir. 1968); Romo v. State, 577 S.W.2d 251 (Tex. Crim.App. 1979); Woods v. State, 213 S.W.2d 685 (Tex. Crim. App. 1948)) (“Any individual may make a ‘citizen’s arrest’ under that provision, provided that all applicable legal requirements are met.”).

The best definition of arrest I have found is, "A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty; the taking or keeping of a person in custody by legal authority, especially, in response to a criminal charge.

In Texas you are authorized under the above circumstances to forcibly deprive a person of his liberty. However, I find nothing beyond 9.22, 9.31, or 9.32 that authorizes that force can be escalated to use of or threat of use of deadly force. If the threat of serious bodily injury or death no longer requires the immediately necessary use of or threat of use of deadly force to counter it, then your authority to use or threaten to use deadly force is gone.

So...can you make a citizen's arrest using force? Yes, pursuant to Texas CP 14.01. Can you use common force to effect the arrest? I believe the rule allows that, when and to the extent necessary to effect the arrest. Can you use the threat of deadly force to effect the arrest? Not unless you have authority to use deadly force under the present circumstances.

Example. The guy goes for his gun and you instinctively deck him. He is now groaning on the ground and you have disarmed him. Can you use the threat of deadly force (showing your gun) to keep him on the ground. I don't believe so, since the threat requiring immediate necessity is gone, and, by law, you can only threaten the use of deadly force if you are authorized to use deadly force. In a situation where a deadly threat has been neutralized, you can use whatever common force is necessary, I believe, when and to the extent necessary to effect the arrest until the cops arrive, but nothing more.

If your attacker is still a threat requiring the immediately necessary use of or threat of the use of deadly force then you've still got major problems requiring defending yourself, much less effecting an arrest.

I am sure there is plenty of case law to be found on this subject in the state law library. Also, for more on the subject study warrantless arrests.

tex