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philip964 wrote: This is from a news site however it is written like an editorial. It is primarily concerned with the lack of progress in releasing information to the public, such as how many of the people killed, were killed with police bullets. He makes the point that if it was zero, he suspects we would know that. It seems to remind me that we never heard in Columbine of any of the bullet forensics being released.

He points to gag orders, etc.

He also points to the Grand Jury being led by a former Waco police officer. He points to the liability of the City of Waco, if many of the bikers were arrested without probable cause. It also sounds like many have lost jobs, after being arrested.

I understand evidence not being released in order to protect the jury pool and insure a fair trial for a defendent. But keeping so much information hidden, when some of it may point to innocence of individuals, smells. It smells here and it smells in Baltimore.

If it is a gag order, it's the same judicial system that allowed a total round up of people and no bail ($1M bond) based on very limited, if any, evidence against individuals.
When you lock people up for extended periods of time, it tends to limit how they're able to make a living, which tends to limit the type of defense they can afford, which tends to make prosecution a bit easier...


It's all going to come out... Eventually...

mojo84 wrote: I agree. If they aren't charged, why should they forfeit anything?

Because America.
If you can afford to contest the actions of the government, you too can have justice.

He was behaving in a way that the government doesn't like. Or otherwise associating with people that are deemed not-good. Must be punished.

mojo84 wrote:Yeah, maybe the cops knew what they were doing after all. Doesn't sound like a bunch of Christians professional out for a weekend ride and a gathering to discuss motorcycle safety updates.

177 jailed originally. Of those arrested, 131 have been released from jail and many were able to get their motorcycles and vehicles back from impound after posting reduced bonds.

I've got no issue with arresting two legitimately criminal organizations that were there for trouble, but note that 74% of those that were arrested have been let out (or bail reduced). What's up with that?

Lots of "specific involvement in the shootout is not detailed in the documents" - seems the criminal activity was having a weapon. Lots of guys called out with criminal records. Some guys with none.

If you're sizing guys up by looks, you're doing it wrong. Lots of really bad guys wear suits.

VM: It smelled bad to me from the beginning. No doubt that they probably got some bad guys, but the entire round-up was a bit ludicrous as was the claim as to number of weapons found.. Part of it may be the media... All I know is that a bunch of "really dangerous" bikers got into some trouble, law enforcement was there and waiting, and all the bad guys got arrested or killed without a single outside or collateral injury. It's a very impressive story. Very impressive. It may well be a model of future engagement, but I suspect it's going to come well short of that.

The facts is that we still don't know what happened, so it's all conjecture (on my part) at this point.

Wait.. it the tide turning here? What happened to mamma-said, the company you keep, and what you wear matters? OK, I made that last bit up about what you wear... But still, it amazes me that outspoken, law-abiding, conservative, constitution-believing people could ever support an such an obvious round up and throw-away the key... Even if it did net quite a few bad guys.

Makes me want to go live on an island. No, you don't need to second that motion..

When you're counting weapons via TSA-style, every little weapon counts. Never know when you might unearth a deadly arrowhead that could be used to help convict a jacket-wearing harley rider.

The data is going to be interesting... for sure..

AndyC wrote: That's not up to the cops - that's up to the prosecutor and the courts, right? I'm also not sure there's any precedent for handling events like this, so they may be making it up as they go along - and you're welcome to leave out all the strawman "If that's OK with you" statements, because I haven't said nor implied that I'm fine with innocent people being nailed. I'm just as pro-liberty as you are.

Of course there is precedent... Somewhere in the USA we've had mass melees. We've certainly had massive violence between real organized crime groups in our history. And you're right - I expect LEOs and prosecutors to pursue the most aggressive detainment terms possible. That's their job as prosecutors and their half of the legal system. I'm really most incredulous around a judiciary that actually allowed that 1M bail in this situation - I would have loved to know exactly how that went down. The result is that we've really only got one narrative and the "facts" smell bad - 17-20 officers taking down 170 felonious, hardened criminal bikers with "400+" weapons without a single injury... Best police force in the world or something wasn't as described.

Andy, I really wasn't speaking to you with "if that's OK with you" - it wasn't an attack on you personally. I'm not professing straw men and I think those calls are generally just distraction - I'm happy to stay on topic. I just massively question those saying that this sort of round up is OK based on nothing but association. Momma gave good advice, but I'm pretty sure she didn't mean that you could be arrested and jailed without bond for a month based on the company you keep. She might say "I told you so" - but she'd also be out hiring a darn good lawyer...

mojo84 wrote:Headed to the lake house where we have them. We have about 8 of them. Couple of Harley's, Ktm, 3 BMW touring bikes. I feel no obligation to prove anything to you.

Mojo, you may be alright yet.. :-)

ShootDontTalk wrote:Many years ago, my wife and I both owned motorcycles - Japanese. We saw an ad for a motorcycle rally and thought it might make a nice weekend ride. We loaded up our two small kids and rode off to a State park. When we arrived, the first thing we noticed was what looked like a gypsy camp on one side and families on the other side of the campground - all on motorcycles. As dusk fell, the activities at the "gypsy camp" took a decided turn for the worse. I won't go into much detail save for the drunken idiots doing doughnuts on the dirt road about 50 feet from where our kids were. We packed up and left.

I've ridden for years. I attended the ROT rally some years ago, it got pretty wild after dusk. The behavior was well tolerated by law enforcement as long as it stayed within the perimeter.. It's not a place where I'd take the kids after dusk, but it was more of a fairly wild party than a giant gathering of organized crime... If people of similar interests want to get a little wild, that's OK with me as long as they're doing it in the appropriate venue..... A state park isn't the appropriate venue.

Sorry you missed the obvious sarcasm. They are all criminal thugs and should be treated as such.

If that's true, why do some of the hold jobs that require background checks? Why do some of them have absolutely zero criminal history?
I could get to "most" are criminal thugs, best case. There is no doubt in my mind that they rounded up everyone that met a visual profile. If that's OK with you make sure you continue to dress and act like the majority - you should be safe. (I don't mean you specifically, Mojo)

"More than a dozen local men were among the 170 people arrested after the shootout, including Juan Carlos Garcia, 45, who is an engineer with the city of Austin’s Public Works Department. According to his Facebook page, he has been a member of the Guardians of the Children biker club and the Grim Guardian of Slaughter Creek. Police said neither groups are considered to be criminal in the Austin area."

"Also arrested was Theron J. Rhoten, 35, an Austin mechanic who drove to the meeting on a vintage Harley chopper, according to the Associated Press. He was with two other members of Vise Grip motorcycle club."

jmra wrote:According to a story released by WFAA, Twin Peaks will no longer host bike nights at any of its 76 locations nationwide.

That's a good solution. Lets ban car shows too. Makes perfect sense to me. Motorcycles are the problem. No, wait.. It's the kind of people that own motorcycles. Where have we heard that before?
There are monthly bike nights all over the country that go by peacefully.. Overreaction and silly.

AndyC wrote:I'm curious to hear how you would have sorted out a massive crime-scene like that on the spot - what you would have done instead.

You do what the constitution and the law allow. Round them all up. You hold them for what the court has deemed a "reasonable" length of time, which I believe is 24 hours. After that, you charge the ones based on evidence and background. You let the rest go and pick them up later if necessary. This is what amounts to "indefinite" hold. Best case, it'll take a month to get trials just on the bail issue. If it's OK with you to be locked up for a month before you can even have a discussion on it, I'm afraid for this country.

What you don't do is hit them all with impossible bonds and ruin them financially based on zero evidence. Sure, they're catching some bad guys, but they're also destroying good guys too. If that's OK with you, I hope you're never in the wrong place, sitting next to the wrong person, or happen to be associated with *any* interest group that might be of government interest.. You know, like a gun owner.

Never, but it wasn't that long ago that a bunch of people were killed in Waco. Police were waiting outside that time too. It was another group of not-so-good guys... And women... And children. Different scenario, but has some similar markings.

I'm with VM - not so much professing the "goodness" of the two large MC groups, but things just don't smell right to me:

"McLennan County Sheriff Parnell McNamara and Swanton declined to comment Tuesday on whether innocent bikers were arrested in the melee."
"Police have said that all those arrested were part of criminal motorcycle gangs, but only two of the nine killed had criminal histories in Texas."
"Records show one of the slain, Wayne Lee Campbell, was arrested for driving while intoxicated in 2002 in Rowlett in Dallas County and sentenced to probation. In 2007, Campbell was charged with assault in Tarrant County and served 45 days in jail."
"Another of those killed, Manuel Isaac Rodriguez, was arrested in 2010 and served probation for unlawfully carrying a weapon at a bar in Lewisville."
"Police have acknowledged firing on armed bikers, but it isn’t clear how many of the dead were shot by bikers and how many were shot by officers."


Basically this is a good summary of what I'm thinking:
"“Yes, there was a problem at this scene, and it was absolutely horrific, but there just also happened to be a significant amount of people there who had nothing to do with it,” he said."'

This is an uber-common Harley hang out. It's right across from Waco HD. There are going to be lots of "civilian" bikers wearing vests and logos. Doesn't make them outlaws.



Remember, the story here is that there was a massive murderistic brawl of 170 hardened criminal bikers, all armed with an average of 2-3 weapons each. The police managed to apprehend all of these hardened criminals without taking a single loss or injury or having a single "civilian" casualty. It's actually a really impressive story from that angle...


Mark my words: This is going to cost Waco a *LOT* of money... You simply cannot arrest everyone and throw away the key like this...

SkipB wrote:It looks like we may have a little break in the weather so I think I'll hook up the boat and head out to a lake for a few days of fishing. I'll leave all this stuff to those that have already figured it all out in their pretty little brains.

Rain is killin' the fishing around here... Or maybe I just don't know where to fish when it's been raining!
I'd hold off.. gonna be another wet weekend.

Yea, my thoughts too. They're probably counting weapons the same way the TSA does.