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lonewolf wrote:I admit to having only shot the surplus ammo, but since times are what they are and I'm looking at my 3rd layoff in 3 years, it'll just have to do for now. Still really pleased with the grouping. Having done some reading on these things, I have found that there is some deliberation on whether or not removing, folding, or shooting with the bayonet extended affects accuracy. Something about the bayonet dampening harmonics as the bullet passes through the barrel. I can't really see that I would be any more accurate with the bayonet (if it had one, like a 91/30). That kind of question probably never dawned on the designers/manufacturers/infantry. It shot, it shot straight, it shot reliably, and had a big pointy piece of steel on the end.

Oh, the vast majority of the ammo I've put through my guns is surplus. I've gone through a good 2000 rounds of it. The difference in consistency between the surplus ammo and the S&B is quite distinct. However... there is some surplus ammo that seems to be better in consistency than others. Specifically, I and others have found the Czech light (147 grain) steel-core rounds to be some of the best-performing surplus ammo out there. I went through an entire crate of this ammo, and its reputation has made it much more difficult to locate these days. I also have some Hungarian heavy (182 grain) steel-core rounds to be pretty decent, though not as good as the Czech stuff.

One surplus ammo I would absolutely stay away from is East German. QC was really bad with this stuff. I bought 2 boxes of this, and 15% of them failed to ignite with solid primer strikes evident. To contrast this, all other surplus I've ever shot has been 100% reliable in ignition.

atticus wrote:My experience is that the MNs get an undeserved reputation as being significantly less accurate than other milsurps (eg. the swedes and swiss guns). If you shoot good ammo thru a MN (eg. S&B) you will generally get better results. Even the best surplus 7.62x54R ammo is erratic at best. I've shot bulgarian, czech, and russian, and the results are spotty at best. Don't presume there's something wrong with the gun when it may just be the ammo. Besides, there are some inexpensive measures that can improve accuracy on a MN (eg. corking the end of the stock). I love my swedes, and I also love my MNs. just my 2 cents.

Agreed. The problem is that there's a barrier to entry with decent quality ammo. The S&B ammo is very accurate and consistent through my guns, but it comes at a cost of a dollar or more (depending on bullet type) per round. There's no such market as 7.62x54R non-surplus range ammo, and S&B is the only choice out there. The alternative is to load your own, but that requires starting with brass, which you've either spent $1/round or more on loaded ammo from S&B or paid about the same price for empty brass from one of the three (to my knowledge) brass companies that produce the stuff.

From Midway USA, Norma brass will put you back $1.29/ea before shipping, when purchased in quantities of 500 (significantly more when purchased in smaller quantities). This is the only manufacturer that Midway carries

From Graf & Sons, there are two selections:

Lapua, which comes out to $0.94/ea bought in quantities of 100 (minus 5% when bought in quantities of 500)

Prvi Paritzan, which comes out to $0.46/ea before shipping when bought in quantities of 100 (minus 5% in quantities of 500, 10% in quantities of 1000). This is, however, perpetually out of stock, and I've never seen a supplier that has ever had it in stock. The cost is great, but availability renders it useless. I suppose you could backorder it, but who knows when it would actually come in.

I see from the history on the internet that there used to be "Winchester" brass in this caliber. I seriously doubt this was manufactured by them, as they source out these kinds of calibers to S&B. I recall buying a box of Winchester "metric" ammo in 9x18. When I turned over the box, it said made in Czech Republic, which means they had S&B produce the rounds for them with the Winchester stamp on it. It even included the tell-tale S&B sealing on the primer and mouth. It seemed to be Winchester trying to make a buck off the market when the Makarov guns were going like hotcakes about 4 years ago from surplus houses, without actually producing any ammo themselves. It was additionally priced a good 25-30% higher than the otherwise identical S&B ammo.

S&B claims to make 7.62x54R brass on their website, but I've never seen it on the market anywhere. A google search for the part number (SB33775) returns nothing for sources.

I agree, there's nothing inherently wrong with the guns or design. The problem exists that ammo availability is limited to surplus or expensive hunting/match rounds. There is no area in between, and even rolling your own is prohibitively expensive unless you're willing to ride out a backorder wait for months on end to get brass at a decent price. I'm not yet willing to have my cash sit in limbo to wait for brass of unknown delivery date, so I've simply resolved to collect my S&B empties (I'm up to around 23 now) until I have a sufficient amount of brass to work up a suffieicent set of test loads.

lonewolf wrote: It all seems pretty clean, but I'll certainly give your method a try. I really hate filing anything on any weapon. I did check without a round in the rifle, and it's only sticky when uncocked, whether loaded (after firing at the range), or unloaded. May be something to do with the pressure of the released firing mechanism.

The bolt actually cocks on open, so that may be what you are perceiving as "sticky". Yes, it is fairly significant resistance. The bolt design is unlike most bolts, so it may be a bit odd to operate at first.

lonewolf wrote:The salts in the surplus ammunition gunpowder make it corrosive. Most recommendations I have seen involve using windex or some other ammonia wash to neutralize the corrosives after shooting and prior to cleaning......

Windex is what I use.

longtooth wrote:This rifle is starting to interest me & I know nothing about it.
someone get me through kindergarten on it please.
Seems like a pretty good close range rifle for hunting w/ the battle sites being accurate.
Caliber??? Weight???Country of origin??? Any war history???

I need Skippr's avitar here.
LT

What he said.

For a little more detail, 7.62x54R is the oldest round still in military use today, most notably in the sand box by way of the PSL and Dragunov used by snipers. It was developed in 1891, in conjuction with the production of the Mosin-Nagant 1891 rifle. The rifle has undergone several revisions. It is a bolt action, as simple as you can make them, designed forRussian peasants to be able to maintain. The Mosin-Nagant has undergone several revisions, the most common being the 91/30 and the M44. It was used as the infantry rifle in all Russian conflicts from the 1890s through after WWII. It was also provided to the North Koreans during the Korean War. The M44 was created during the height of WWII as a carbine, as the 91/30 that was standard issue was too long for urban combat. Both the 91/30 and the M44 utilize long spiked bayonets. The 91/30 has a 20" bayonet and is detachable, while the M44 bayonet is 14" and fixed to the stock, swinging rearward on a hinge to the right hand when not deployed.

It is more difficult to find an M44 that is in great condition with a good bore, as they were cranked out in very desperate times during WWII, and corrosive ammo was universally used in those times. I have both a 91/30 and an M44, and the 91/30 is a much better shooter for me. Recoil is quite stout with either rifle, but there is very little muzzle rise on either gun.

I take my 91/30 hunting, and have been successful with it. I run transition drills with mine on clays set on the berm at the end of a 100y range, and the practice helped me bag a perpendicularly running deer at 40y on my first deer hunt. New factory ammo suitable for hunting is available from Sellier & Bellot, which I have found to be quite accurate and consistent in my guns. Plinking ammo is generally limited to surplus steel-cased/berdan-primed Eastern European stuff, which necessitates the cleaning of the bore after each range session to clear the corrosives. You can, of course, roll your own, but brass is pretty expensive, and limited to only a few manufacturers. I've been collecting my empties from my factory loads to eventually reload those.

Since you reload, I'll say that most people reload with .308 bullets. This may or may not work well for accuracy in any particular gun, and I've read that slugging the bore would give you a relatively good answer on this. Spec for 7.62x54R is either .311 or .312. Bullets for .303 British and 7.62x39 come in this diameter, though the 7.62x39 bullets only come in lighter weights.

I bought mine from AIM Surplus, and they have quite a number of 91/30 rifles available. The M44 is more scarce of a find these days. I'd recommend the 91/30 unless you need a carbine. I find it more pleasurable to shoot in general, personally.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=90" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=95" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I'll post a link here to the deer I took with my 91/30, just to give you an idea of size and appearance. I'm 6ft tall, for perspective:

WARNING: LINK BELOW IS IN THE HUNTING PHOTOS SECTION OF THE SITE, WHICH INCLUDES PHOTOS OF DEAD ANIMALS.
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=21469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyhow, hope this answers some of your questions. You can also check the 7.62x54r.net site for lots and lots of information:

http://7.62x54r.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;