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bigolbigun wrote:This is also the tactic I usually use. But I have often wondered if my response of "nothing for you" angers the guy and resulted in a weapon being drawn (gun,knife,etc.) by the panhandler saying something like "we'll see about that". How quickly would I be able to react to that situation? What would be the best way to practice for such a scenario? It always give me a creepy feeling whenever I am approached like that by someone.

I suspect that the final "for you" could irritate someone attuned to language's finer subtleties, but this generally does not include the target audience. Feel free to substitute "to give", particularly if you are so well paid that all you have are benjies and credit cards.

Ignoring them outright may motivate them to move closer to try to get their point across. Even a simple raised hand (a la "talk to the hand" but without the snarky verbiage) implicitly acknowledges them and may give them some ego satisfaction, accomplishes a quasi-fence, and communicates your disinterest.

The Dogcatcher, as promulgated by Suarez Int'l and the Dog Brothers, could be useful in 1-3 yard ranges where a panhandler could suddenly turn aggressive with a contact weapon. Transitioning to a passive default will help protect the head and keep you upright, but little else. There are no guarantees in these situations and at these ranges; it is just bad all around.

Russell wrote:So what would you consider to be the best way of dealing with a panhandler? Let them get within comfortable talking distance and be firm, or don't even let them get close and use increased vocal and physical (outstretched hand) methods to keep them at a safe distance, even if it could possibly mean increased violence due to them being insulted and may cause their drugged-out minds to "snap"?

This is not an exact science. If you can keep all panhandlers and other unknown contacts past Tueller range---great! However, in populated, built-up areas, that is a pretty unrealistic expectation, so we have to plan for people getting too close for our preference.

I guess you could consider the distance between you and the unknown contact as being inversely proportional to the verbal intensity; the closer he is, the more intense your words and delivery and the more evasive you should be with your body positioning relative to his. If a sketchy character is 7-10 yards away, you might be able to stop him with a relaxed fence and, "Hey buddy, stay there for me." If he closes in further, "Back up, man," with a little more aggressive/insistent body language. But if you try to stop everyone at 15 yards with an screaming, expletive-laden rant, expect some negative feedback (official complaints, people start screening your calls, etc).

What I typically say to an average, non-aggressive panhandler, in a semi-rapid delivery: "Sorry, I don't have anything for you." I begin with a bit of sympathy, then convey the idea that I am not giving them anything. I do not try to make eye contact with them, either, I just continue shuffling along my own way. If they persist, then the simplified unknown contact loop kicks in, with plenty of "back up" and "go away". That said, I have not encountered a seriously-aggressive panhandler for a long time. Maybe it is a Yankee thing. Part of it is also that after a few experiences with elements like these, you might learn to pick them out at a greater distance and preemptively avoid them by walking on the other side of a busy street or avoid looking at them directly/making eye contact so they are not drawn in.

This is stuff that is easily role-played with a spouse, SO or friends, and can be used more frequently and with less aftermath than using force/deadly force, so work it. If I was involved in an interdisciplinary training group and I had my way, this would get practiced every session.

Russell wrote:

yerasimos wrote:What I like to do/have been taught for these unknown contacts:
* two-handed, eye-level "fence"
* 90-degree step-off from unknown contacts' vector

Can you explain more on point 1 and 2?

Point 1: AFAIK, the root "source" would be Geoff Thompson in the UK; I was taught/learned aspects of it second-hand. Basically, you want to get your hands up at least to shoulder level, palms facing forward. In most cultures, the outward-facing palm connotes a message for the observer to "stop". The hands serve as both a visual and a floating physical barrier when dealing with an unknown contact. Also, this position transitions nicely to various temporary defaults that can mitigate the damage if the unknown contact strikes you first.

Point 2: this gets you "off the X" at least temporarily, and re-orientates you so that you can get a minimal, peripheral visual check of your former 6, in case the unknown contact in front of you is just a decoy to distract you from an accomplice seeking to attack you from behind. I learned this from the same bunch that has served as a major stateside conduit for the "fence"; as far as I know, point 2 is original with them.

Russell wrote:Does anybody here let the panhandlers get close enough to you where they could do damage quickly? I know for a fact I did, mainly because I did not want to increase the hostility of the situation by yelling "Back up. Don't get close to me!" I do not know how to handle a situation like that comfortably where I can still feel that I maintain complete control of the situation. Any pointers?

Anyone can get ambushed, given worst-case scenario timing and circumstances. Just about everyone falls short of Jeff Cooper's ideal of constant condition yellow. Even the people I learned from admitted to occasionally getting surprised and "taken in" by unknown contacts.

Keep the verbal loop as brief and simple as you can. "Back up" and "go away" are clearly understood and roll off the tongue pretty easily. There is no need to insult or provoke the other person, but neither is there any need for politesse or charm. Some espouse using profanity for its effectiveness; these same people also recognize that if used, it must be used for the purpose of emphasis, not for insulting the other person. (Think about it a little and it should be easy to figure out.) Myself, I would prefer to use escalating vocal volume over profanity, because of the witness effect (as ELB alluded to) and to keep the loop simpler.

Just to be clear, I would prioritize dealing with the unknown contact over taking extra effort to prep witnesses or trying to access a non-deadly force tool like pepper spray, particularly when the unknown contact is within 6 feet. If the fight starts at that distance, you must be alert and start with whatever is in hand right then, which is frequently nothing. Plan accordingly.

Good results all around (some better than others).

It is a real shame that we place ourselves at great risk when helping those who we happen upon who may be truly down on their luck, because of imposters who try to take advantage of others' charity. Charitable organizations like churches, food banks, volunteer "Good Samaritan" vehicles, etc, help screen out some opportunistic predators, or at least act an a go-between between givers and the needy.

What I like to do/have been taught for these unknown contacts:
* two-handed, eye-level "fence"
* 90-degree step-off from unknown contacts' vector
* pre-rehearsed verbal loops ("Sorry, I don't have anything for you" or "hold up, buddy-->hey, back up!--->BACK!!! UP!!!")
* watch the hands and the waistband
* ignore their prattle, do not get drawn into conversation with them
* keep moving quickly if possible