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rotor

I have a great respect for TAM and hopes he makes a lot of money. I just question "The current dip WILL reverse itself, and prices WILL go back up. " as a guaranteed truism for the long term. I personally hope he is right. I just don't believe it and I follow this post as interesting and may end up kicking myself in the butt for not investing but I am not a believer. I think that one must separate blockchain technology from crypto-currency. They are not synonymous. One is a technological accomplishment, one is an investment scheme in which there will be winners and losers as with all investments. There will not just be winners. I do not count paper profits as being a winner. The only thing that counts is how much did you put in and how much did you take out. The real challenge to any investing is knowing when to get out. I don't consider myself to be a genius on that feature. I have learned a lot about crypto-currency by this post. I hope it continues.

rotor

Not to prolong the misery of this post but who actually insures Coinbase? Is it a reliable company? They say "Our insurance policy is made available through a combination of third-party insurance underwriters and Coinbase, who is a co-insurer under the policy." What does that mean?

rotor

TAM
You are a very wise man but if you own Microsoft and want to sell it there has to be someone that will buy it. One can wallpaper many walls with stock certificates that have no value. I have many of them in my possession. My broker always got his commission though.

I sincerely hope that people on this forum make a ton of money on their investments. I am not claiming that anyone here is stupid and wish you all the best on investments and profits.

I can not comment on hacking especially since we know there is a major defect in Intel chips that may allow hackers to steal everyone's passwords for everything. Very frightening.

rotor

For you cryptocurrency people, tomorrow I propose we issue 20,000 gun coins and offer them at $10 each. We will trade them exactly as if they were bitcoin or one of the other phenomena. How many of you would like to get in on this one time low price offer?

rotor

OldCannon wrote:
rotor wrote:It's only a profit when you sell. The question is.......... when do you sell? Still a Ponzi.
Please refute the following then, take your time, I can wait:

- There is no central benefactor, thus there is no "pyramid" structure. It is, in fact, the opposite. No single person or entity can simply run away with the money.

The central benefactor is the originator of the currency. Could be some high school kid in mom's basement.

- There is no promise of riches associated with investment. It is an investment risk just like any other currency investment, with the insurance that the originating country not propping up the currency with "quantitative easing" (a fancy word for "printing money backed by nothing")

True, no promise of riches just the implication that this currency will increase in value otherwise why would you buy it. It is not easier to spend than a plain old dollar so the implication is that it will increase in value.

- The value of the item is independent of "continuous aggregative investor" scenarios. A collapse in people buying/trading the currency does not result in a subsequent collapse of the value of the existing currency.

If you can't sell it or spend it what is it worth? Someone has to buy it so you can convert it into a usable form such as dollars or actual merchandise. If nobody will do that there is no value.

- Bitcoin (or other digital currencies) have a functional limit on quantity. Unlike national currencies.

- Ponzi scheme products cannot function as currency in any way, shape, or form

This is a Ponzi in that it requires new investors to buy in and the only way the old investors can profit is with new investors buying the old investors cryptocuurency. No new investors and the bubble bursts. You must sell your cryptocurrency to use it and profit and therefore you need a buyer. What is the intrinsic value of the coin without a buyer?

- There is technically no "bubble" upon which everything collapses. The quantity of bitcoin/litecoin/ethereum always exists in unhackable digital ledgers. The only fluctuation is based on the perceived value of the per unit item. It is, quite literally, impossible to destroy the existing currency without destroying the internet, and that's an entirely different problem.

So lets say there are 20,000 bitcoins out there and nobody wants to buy one. What are they worth?

rotor

Why is cryptocurrency a Ponzi? As noted, there are a fixed amount of coins. In and of themselves they produce no income, have no intrinsic value and you can't hold it in your hand so to speak. They are not a commodity which actually has backing although who wants a ton of pork bellies in their garage? The only way they grow in value is if there is a buyer willing to buy in. Without new buyers coming in the whole thing collapses. Let's say your coin is valued at $12,000 right now and you decide to sell it. What happens if there are no buyers? What is your coin worth? Nothing. As with Ponzi, it depends on new people coming in with the glint of riches and easy money in their eye and willing to put their money in. No new buyers and you have nothing. All of the early investors do well as long as they get out before the bubble bursts and the late investors get hosed. This is just a variation of a Ponzi. It requires the blood of new investors to make the profit for the older investors who hopefully for them get out before it collapses. So, once the feeding frenzy is over and there are no new investors (suckers as Ponzi and Madoff would call them) the bubble will burst. Ponzi schemes can go on for years so longevity means nothing. The requirement is new people willing to buy. The incentive is greed as there is no physical "commodity" that one gets. You are not putting a Colt Python in the gun safe waiting for it to increase in value.

Since there is no physical product involved what will you have when it bursts? Spot gold right now is $1316. Not $2000. But at least you can convert the gold into a ring or necklace for your significant other if it collapses. What happens to cryptocurrency if nobody wants to buy what you want to sell (or cash in)?

Now, that doesn't mean I don't buy lottery tickets sometimes but I know I am not going to win but $5 so what, right?

Good luck my friends. Really I hope you all make a ton of money and only strangers we don't know get stuck.

rotor

Liberty wrote:
rotor wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:Now I’m up $670 since 12/22, and up $181 since 6:30 this morning. A friend of mine made a little over $4000 in the last 24 hours.
It’s up to $723 of profit now.
It's only a profit when you sell. The question is.......... when do you sell? Still a Ponzi.
I don't think you understand what a Ponzi really is. Trading cryptocurrencies is commodity trading, it's no different than pork bellies or precious metals.

What is the commodity? Show me the pork belly. There is no commodity. You own nothing material. No silver, gold or strength of a country. There is money to be made during the frenzy but I don't believe it is sustainable.

rotor

The Annoyed Man wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:Now I’m up $670 since 12/22, and up $181 since 6:30 this morning. A friend of mine made a little over $4000 in the last 24 hours.
It’s up to $723 of profit now.

It's only a profit when you sell. The question is.......... when do you sell? Still a Ponzi.

rotor

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Abraham wrote:Man oh man, I sincerely hope, I can and come back and say man oh man was I wrong.

I wish you all well.
Thank you for the well wishes. Let me leave you with an idea to chew on. Ask George Soros (whome we all love so dearly) how he became a multi-billionaire - one of the richest men on the planet. He did it by trading in currencies of different kinds - playing one off the other, etc. etc.

Crypto currency is REAL currency. It is here to stay. You can already buy and sell goods using cryptocurrency. SOME crypto currencies will bottom out and turn to crap, just as have some fiat currencies. Example: read up on what happened during the Argentinian financial crisis that lasted from the late 1980s until about 2002, when the Argentinian Peso became completely worthless. Or, how about the Deutschmark during the Weimar Republic in the 1920s?

ANY fiat currency can collapse too, not just cryptocurrencies. You have to choose wisely, JUST like you do with trading in fiat currencies, and you have to know when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em.....JUST like with trading in fiat currencies. But the bottom line is that cryptocurrency is here to stay, and it is only going to get bigger.

I wish you well too but as in all things traded there are winners and losers. We all know that even country issued currency can collapse, look at Venezuela right now. Cryptocurrency is real in the fact that it is being traded on an exchange so that anyone can convert dollars or other monetary currency for crypto coins and the reverse. The difference between crpto and say Amazon stock is that with Amazon there is a company behind it and you can see the results of that company. With crptocurrency you can only see the rise and fall of it's value in relation to the dollar or whatever currency you compare it to and that changes on a day to day basis. With the dollar you have the faith and trust of the United States (please don't get me started on that). Probably right now a good investment might be Venezuela currency as eventually it should come back as I believe they have the worlds largest undrilled supply of oil. What backs crypto though except the current upward trend in the market? I think there is money to be made in crypto as long as the slope of the curve is still upward but I believe it is like a Ponzi scheme and will collapse at some point. The big players and manipulators will eventually sell out and the market will crash. And when they sell it off they will sell it for dollars and not a different cryptocurrency. Because after all, what backs it up. Nothing. Just my opinion and TAM I hope you make a ton of money with it. I personally live in a material world. I like things, cars, guns, homes, man toys-you know what I mean. Preferably they will go up in value- maybe not. I don't buy precious metals even though I can hold it in my hands. TAM, just know when to hold them and when to fold them and if it looks too good to be true, it is. Enjoy my friend.

rotor

Ponzi. Good luck with your investment and as long as you don't put in more than you can afford but eventually it will collapse.

rotor

Good news for all you investors, I will NOT buy any crypto-currencies because if I did the market would immediately collapse. I look at this like a large Ponzi scheme which will eventually collapse. I realize that there is a possibility of making money on this gamble but one may also lose all of one's investment. Timing is everything. Has anyone here actually used their bitcoin to purchase a product? Three bitcoins gets you a car but has anyone bought a car with bitcoin? Or are you just converting your bitcoins back to real money?

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