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ScooterSissy

treadlightly wrote:
From some of the reading I've done, there are undercover cops in the OMG's and their are OMG members undercover in the military and law enforcement agencies.
Probably so. And there are MC's like the Blue Knights who, despite probably being fine folk, are completely aware of the patch extortion schemes - and let it continue.

Maybe for reasons beyond my view, it's just not a big deal. Seems like it led to killings, but I guess it's not worth pursuing.

To the best of my knowledge, the Blue Knights wear exactly what they want to wear. Definitely have 3 piece colors.

ScooterSissy

treadlightly wrote:
I think the reason there's no crackdown is because you have one outlaw group extorting another outlaw group.
I found posts on a Freemason's forum about the permission required from outlaw MC's for Masonic clubs to put their states on their jackets.

For full disclosure's sake, I'm not a Mason and don't have any interest in their organization. I just suspect Mason's motorcycle clubs are composed of normal law-abiding folks.

Agreed, that happens. There is a difference (some will say it's a big difference, some will not) between that type of permission, and the flat out extortion that's being discussed. I'll precede this with stating, again, I know of no RCs (Riding Clubs, like the Freemason club you mentioned) that pay fees to any MC.

An RC going to a CoC meeting for "permission" (it's actually called an approval process) is different than what's being discussed between MCs. The RC would go to a CoC meeting, and ask if there are objections to the combination of patch colors and design from any of the other clubs (RC and MC). If there are objections, it's then worked out what changes should be done to not conflict with another club's design.

Technically, it's all voluntary. In reality, many RCs go through the process because they know there's a chance of confrontation if they cross the line. Through the approval process (which is typically granted) a club then knows that other RC members are told the colors are approved.

treadlightly wrote:
Without a victim, the LEO would have to have full visibility to the act, including the threat, the arrangement, and the payoff or enforcement.
Looks like full visibility is pretty much there. Maybe the problem is the Bandidos image is intimidating. Heck, without any concrete facts at all I assume I'd be executed if I were to be part of a case against the Bandidos' licensing income. I'd like to think I'd go right ahead anyway, but I can't put it to the test. I'm not a victim of the Bandidos. Not a direct victim, anyway. Mayhem on the streets hurts us all and any tie between bikes and violence is unfair to law-abiding motorcyclists.

The type of "licensing income" you're talking about is not done at the CoC meetings. All that's even marginally related is that the one club will give approval to another club having similar colors or design at a CoC meeting.

ScooterSissy

treadlightly wrote:There has been much discussion about the Bandidos "licensing" TEXAS bottom rockers, but there is something missing.

It's extortion. It's in violation of racketeering laws, both federal and state. It's being conducted in plain sight and has been for probably decades. Big money is involved.

Meantime the DPS burns expensive gasoline on the off-chance I might get behind the wheel in a few minutes and drive too stinkin' fast. If I do, of course, I should be brought to justice - but how is it that some groups have a free pass on unlawful extortion?

With no intended disrespect to any law enforcement personnel, I'm curious - what law enforcement agencies aren't doing their job? I don't mean that as confrontationally as it no doubt sounds, but I'm really fascinated.

What agency is on the hook to stop me if I start licensing the word Texas stitched on cloth?

I emailed the Texas Rangers with a polite and humorous inquiry, but they haven't returned the email.

Who should I contact?

I think the reason there's no crackdown is because you have one outlaw group extorting another outlaw group.

ScooterSissy

carlson1 wrote:As a Pastor I would not be at a "meeting" conducting prayer when I should be in my Church conducting a service at Noon on Sunday. I want even mention the type of dive this meeting was being held in.

I have been ask to conduct prayer before meetings, but never during what would be our normal church schedule.

Some churches have multiple pastors. My wife is a pastor at our church. She's not on staff, but is licensed and thus listed as a pastor. She is often called on to do duties outside of the church.

ScooterSissy

ddstuder wrote:The power of Prayer is the most powerful weapon of all!

200 citizens in attendance, 170 jailed, 9 murdered and 18 wounded. That means 3 people got away without incident.

What happens when they come after your hobby/passion?

What if they raided the first 200 people parked in a Walmart? How many weapons would be on person, or in vehicles?

If some broke the law, by all means prosecute harshly, but if they have not been charged after 10+ days, LET THEM GO!

To be fair, the way I heard the story was that the 200+ were already inside, when another group rode up. That group wasn't part of the 200+ that were inside, and never made it inside. Don't know the truth, but I tend to believe the source I got it from.

ScooterSissy

ddstuder wrote:https://www.facebook.com/NCOM.Christian ... 22?fref=nf

DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A MEETING OF ORGANIZED CRIMINALS?
Here is a typical May Central Texas COC&I agenda:

1. Opening Prayer (a pastor of a church from Austin would have prayed).
2. Pledge of allegiance to the American flag.
3. Reports from the chairman from the recent meeting at the National Coalition of Motorcyclist annual convention.
4. Reports from the Legislative Task Force regarding current legislation affecting motorcyclist.
5. Reports from Safety and Awareness committee.
(May is Motorcycle Safety and Awareness month, so there would have been extensive talk about upcoming meeting with City officials around the area for Motorcycle Safety and Awareness Proclamations)
6. Closing remarks
7. Closing devotional remarks and prayer
That is about it. No talk about club business or issues are conducted at a COC&I meeting. In fact, it is common for there to be an announcement that if anyone has issues with anyone else, this is not the place for that, so take it elsewhere.
All clubs as well as those who ride, but do not wear a patch, are invited to attend.

Thank you for that!!! There are some here, who will undoubtedly state that because the CoC is currently (and, admittedly, OFTEN) headed by a member of an outlaw MC, that somehow makes it an outlaw organization. I disagree. Such a viewpoint would undoubtedly also mean that anyone involved in organized politics are outlaws, since we know that group is full of criminals...

ScooterSissy

ShootDontTalk wrote:
ScooterSissy wrote: Much like the backpatch, PGR members have been asked not to respond to protestors (leadership asking us not to exercise free speech), and not to interact with the press. I don't see asking us not to wear a backpatch to be any different. We are there for one specific purpose, and wearing decorations isn't a necessary part.
Really? You don't see a difference between an organization that you joined of your own free will asking you to refrain from something-in this case verbally confronting protestors under threat of kicking you out of the organization-between that and a gang of criminals TELLING your organization, and by extension you and your family, that if you wear a piece of cloth that has the word Texas on it that they will beat or kill you? Which is exactly the punishment meted out at Twin Peaks?

Seriously, you really don't see any difference? Tell me how you feel about armed carjackers?

Sorry. That really is my last word. This discussion is going in circles.

Why ask a question, then say it's your last word?
To answer your question - no criminal asked or told me to do anything. The PGR leadership did, and they did that with the mission in mind. They also asked us as members, not to interact with protestors, for the same reason. Both are "intrusions" on our rights. Both requests were done to ensure that funerals, and our mission, are not disrupted. I hope you see that. I also trust you see that both are requesting people put aside their "rights" for a better purpose.

I'll also note that both are reactions to thugs, though they may be thugs of a different sort. We know the type of intimidation that the outlaw MCs use. The Phelps crew uses their own intimidation and tactics - that being they goad people during their "protests", then sue them when they react.

To the best of my knowledge, no member of the PGR has ever been asked to leave the organization for wearing a backpatch in Oklahoma. It wasn't a dictate (the organization does not work that way), it was a request. Also, to the best of my knowledge, no PGR has ever been asked to leave for interacting with Westboro. That's because most of the membership honor the request.
=====
Edited to add - my "don't see ... any different" was applied to leadership asking us, and their (leader's) motivations. It has nothing to do with my feelings about the actions of the MCs (which I believe are wrong).

My feelings about carjackers - no different than my feelings about MCs that use fear to intimidate, they're wrong.

ScooterSissy

ShootDontTalk wrote:...
I have two problems here. First, voluntarily suppressing the "right" to not "respond" to (and I don't even want to know what that means) the "protestors" is hardly the same as voluntarily giving in to a criminal motorcycle gang and its demands. Withholding my rights are significantly different from surrendering them to a criminal element.

And two. Please don't take this personally, I believe you heart is good from everything you've written. BUT IF the media ever learn that the PGR, the "defenders of freedom", go to the Bandidos (who you say run the CoC) and submit to their demands over a patch - which seems to be the underlying reason for the shootout in Waco, they won't paint the PGR as heroes, they will be painted into the same corner as every other OMG. Not that what the media says will be right mind you, but the media does not care about the facts. The Bible says to "avoid every appearance of evil". Associating with evil has risks. Most are contrary to the mission.

Much like the backpatch, PGR members have been asked not to respond to protestors (leadership asking us not to exercise free speech), and not to interact with the press. I don't see asking us not to wear a backpatch to be any different. We are there for one specific purpose, and wearing decorations isn't a necessary part.

Don't know how I communicated that the PGR met with a CoC, but didn't mean to. That hasn't happened that I'm aware of. The communication back in 2009 was from the CoC to a state leader, but wasn't a CoC meeting. Also, the PGR are not "defenders of freedom", and I don't think I said the Bandidos run the CoC, that was someone else (it may be true, but it didn't come from me). The PGR does not strive to be "heros". They strive to pay honor and respect to fallen veterans and first responders.

It's probably also worth mentioning that the CoC isn't all MCs, some are independent riders, some are RCs, even Christian organizations.

ScooterSissy

mojo84 wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
mojo84 wrote:SS, this may say it in a way you can relate to better.

http://www.rcvsmc.net/id8.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This information is to educate you on the outlaw 1%er lifestyle, not to scare you away from riding. (And remember, please think before you respond to anything, don't do any bashing of anyone or any club on the e groups, forums or at any bars.) First off, the likelihood of anyone getting into a scrape with outlaws/1%er”s is slim to none unless you frequent their bars or hangouts. But make no mistake, this is very real. Since most bike clubs are “NOT” outlaw clubs, they will have no issue with you as long as you stay out of their “business” and follow biker protocol. There is rarely a problem at a public event or poker run but it is always possible. So lets start with the "Rocker" you hear about. The rocker is in the form of a half moon, for lack of a better term. Similar to the bottom of a rocking chair. If you think about it, you have all seen photos of "Hells Angels" and the way the patches are arched above and below the center patch. MC (Motorcycle Club) patch and the 1% diamond will also be found on their Cut (also referred to as Colors). There are also many other patches some clubs wear that only mean something to that particular club.

The 1% diamond is the key to identifying a 1%er. It is a patch in the shape of a diamond with “1%” on it. That is mostly worn on the left shoulder but is seen on the back of their colors also. They, (1%er's) ride mostly Harley’s only, along with their support clubs and almost all outlaw clubs, but that's another story. Flying a certain style of patch on the back of colors is how the outlaws identify who is or is not claiming territory. Territory is a huge issue and they will fight and/or kill over it if it comes to that. It’s just “Business”. The rocker or the bar style patch is not acceptable to 1%er's unless approved by them. And just because an M/C club wears “Rocker” or “Bar” style patch’s that doesn’t make them an outlaw club. You just have to learn who is who but your officers should have some knowledge on that.

As I said, most clubs are not outlaw clubs and don’t wear a top and bottom rocker. They may have a top rocker but if they have a bottom patch it will not have State, City or County wording on it , many times it will be the member’s road name. For example any club in Texas (unless it’s grand fathered by the Bandido’s) that’s not affiliated with Bandidos, (and other than a police club) are not allowed to fly the "Texas" patch ("Bar" or "Rocker") on the back. They have even forced some police clubs to remove the Texas rocker. Also, 99% of Bandido support clubs cannot wear Texas on the back. The Bandidos claim that right as an MC (Motorcycle Club) and will aggressively approach you if you are seen wearing it on the back of your colors. Most states have its dominant 1% club where the same rule applies. The Bandidos are the dominant club in Texas as well as several other states.
They STILL have no LEGAL authority to enforce this, and therefore, all of their enforcement efforts are a gang-related criminal activity. Any POLICE club that removed their rockers were guilty of a giant FAIL.

Until someone can show me where the Banditos have LEGAL exclusive use of this rocker, as recognized under copyright or other law, I will continue to maintain that they would be a criminal gang for enforcing their claim, even if they were guilty of no other crimes.

The quoted article sounds like another apologist. I hate apologists.
I agree 100%. They do not have any legal right or authority. I do not condone it and I do not believe people should be subjected to their "rules". I only posted that to show what goes on in reality and what that subculture does. That's why I have ZERO sympathy for the thugs that were killed or the one's that are in jail. If people chose that lifestyle and to run with those people, they accept all the consequences.

I ask again, weren't the Cossacks doing exactly what you say should be done, standing up for their rights?

ScooterSissy

ShootDontTalk wrote:
ScooterSissy wrote: I'm also going to add, the dust-up with the PGRs happened because an MC member approached a PGR rider about his patch. The PGR rider (reportedly) got mouthy, the MC member took it to his club Pres, who took it to the CoC. The PGR rider was undoubtedly simply asserting his rights.

In my opinion, silly fuss over something that had nothing to do with the mission.
With all due respect, honoring a soldier who gave his life defending our freedom, rights, and way of life by surrendering those very rights and freedoms to a criminal gang bent on extortion and the threat of violence, seems to me to make for kind of a strange "mission." I don't think I want any part of that.

then I guess we won't be seeing you on the line. However, the families that I personally have interacted with - the families of those heroes you mentioned - have a different view.

For what it's worth, we also suppress our constitutional rights to respond to the "protestors" when they show up; again for the same reason. Disrupting a funeral would be counter to the mission.

ScooterSissy

Google "Sons of Arthritis", you'll get a kick out of it.

ScooterSissy

ShootDontTalk wrote:
ScooterSissy wrote: Huh???? Why should they have not shown up? Isn't that the case you (among a few others) have been making, that they are free to go where they want, and wear what they want? Does the thug accusation take away their rights to go where they want, and wear what they want? Who decides these things, outside of the judges and juries of course?
Scootersissy...I for one was not making that point at all. It disturbs me that a criminal gang should extort good people like you.

My only other point is about how nonexistent the reward for "imitators" to hang around these folks.

As for the Cossacks, in theory the same feeling applies. However, when it comes to two gangs (both seemingly criminal) having a disagreement about one extorting the other, I just really don't care all that much. They can call a cop if it bothers them. Nothing I've said should be interpreted that I care one way or another about either group - or any other group involved in criminal enterprises.

I don't feel extorted at all. The only time any issue came up for me was when I was considering the back patch. I made the decision that a possible dust up wasn't worth distracting from the mission. In a similar vein, I made the decision not to fly a big flag from my bike, until I had a quality "highway-proof" flag mount made. I made that decision because the mount I made broke, interrupting the mission. It simply wasn't worth the risk again.

I disagree a little, but only a little, about the "imitators" hanging around the folks. My church hosted a PGR event some time back. A local MC volunteered their smoker, and several of the members showed up to help cook.

They were warmly received, people intermingled with them, and they heard/experienced two messages that day - one was patriotic and one was scriptural. A member of another MC sits in front of me at church often (not every Sunday). Sometimes we talk bikes. I've jokingly told him I still ride a rice-burner, and he smiles back and says as long as I'm riding and happy. He keeps coming. We keep talking.

ScooterSissy

mojo84 wrote:
thenick_ttu wrote:
mojo84 wrote:SS, this may say it in a way you can relate to better.

http://www.rcvsmc.net/id8.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have even forced some police clubs to remove the Texas rocker.
I'm going to have to call bull on this. I would be shocked if a they forced a police club to follow their rules. At best, they may have negotiated where both sides receive something in return.

Based on what? The patriot guard doesn't use a territory ticket. Why?

Because they have nothing to do with "territory". As I mentioned in a previous post, at one time there was concern over the colors of the backpatch (back in 2009), and riders were explicitly asked not to wear the PGR backpatch in the state of OK. Later, some state leaders in the PGR it cleared up (though I can't find that post right now).

This was the original post:

Effective immediately, the PGR back patch is no longer authorized for wear in Oklahoma, at anytime. Members should not have any patch on the back of their garments that is yellow and blue and has the PGR logo. Additionally, PGR flags, banners, magnets, and stickers, are not authorized to be displayed, on any vehicle (1 or more wheels) except during funeral missions for Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines, who are casualties of Operation Iraqi Freedom or Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan). Patches on the front of the garment (vest, jacket, shirt, etc.) are authorized - no PGR items should be worn on the back of the vest, shirt, or jacket. Shirts or headgear with the PGR logo in any color but BLACK or BLUE are authorized.

Ladies and gentlemen, this policy affects any PGR member traveling through or performing missions in Oklahoma.

If you have questions and want details, please send me an email. As I'm dealing with a number of emails right now, it may be a day or so before I can answer each one.

That was shortly followed up with clarification that only the backpatch was off limits:

The previous uniform & display policy for the PGR in Oklahoma is hereby rescinded.

Effective 13 Aug 09, the PGR back patch is not authorized for wear at anytime in the State of Oklahoma. All other PGR paraphernalia may be displayed during PGR missions and PGR-related activities. Permanent/semi-permanent items, such as stickers & decals make be displayed anytime on any item or vehicle (i.e, helmets, motorcycles, cages, etc.).

To clarify: The back patch is out. Anything else you put on your vest, jacket, T-shirt, hat, doorag (or any other personal garment) is IN, anytime. Flags, banners, signs, magnets, etc. are IN for PGR-related activities or missions. Stickers and decals are OK on anything, anytime.

You have to be a member to actually see the posts - https://www.patriotguard.org/showthread ... h+oklahoma" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I would ask that no one join simply to read what was said; that if you join, please ride missions to show respect to our fallen military and first responders.

I'm also going to add, the dust-up with the PGRs happened because an MC member approached a PGR rider about his patch. The PGR rider (reportedly) got mouthy, the MC member took it to his club Pres, who took it to the CoC. The PGR rider was undoubtedly simply asserting his rights.

In my opinion, silly fuss over something that had nothing to do with the mission.

ScooterSissy

mojo84 wrote:Been looking at the patches for sale by the Patriot Guard. I don't see any territory bottoms rockers for sale.

http://store.patriotguard.org/Patches/b ... le=Patches" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

nothing here looking like a territory/turf bottom rocker either.

http://store.patriotguard.org/Scooter-S ... B00GC7KH4O" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PGR doesn't sell any rockers. They do sell a backpatch.

ScooterSissy

mojo84 wrote:
Keith B wrote:Alright folks, this is getting to the personal attack level. Stop now or this will be locked.

Yes, the kicking of the ant pile has gone beyond reason and frustration is mounting with the proponents of the criminal elements event though one of the rules of the forum says promotion of illegal activities is against the rules.

I have yet to see anyone in this thread promoting criminal elements. If you're addressing that to me, you're simply wrong.

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