TexasCHLforum.com

zimmerdesignz wrote:

LSUTiger wrote:

zimmerdesignz wrote:

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

So do you consider the situation to have elevated to where you would be justified with using force?

I think the key difference between this and "In a manner calculated to alarm" is Defense/Justified vs Offense/Unjustified.

At which point do you become justified? IMHO, when you anticipate receiving great bodily harm is enough for me. Especially if someone else could be in danger if you receive great bodily harm. Like your child in the car.

I would call 911 first just to let them know what happened. Just in case the other guy calls in too. They will believe the first one to call in.

But just walking up to you without weapon or aggression is not "FORCE" The beggar has not technically made a

a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise

This action could leave you in a court letting a jury of peers decide if it was justifiable.

Yup that is quite possible, but that is possible anytime you use or threaten to use force.

If a person panhandling late in the evening is approaching you and you say to him you aren't giving him any money, and he keeps approaching, he might be getting ready to attack. Let the guy get too close(keep in mind the 21 foot rule) and your pistol may not save you.

Having to hire a lawyer and prove we were justified is something we all have a chance of having to do. Some of us may have already. I will say, I much rather have to prove my justification in threatening force or risk beating a disorderly conduct rap than to have some guy try and stab me for money I don't have in my pocket.

Not sure if I'll open or conceal carry while fueling up at night. I guess I'll play it by ear.

Mavs00 wrote:

Javier730 wrote: If it's a legal CHLer who is carrying we are talking about, there is already a weapon in the equation.

Not if it's concealed. By "equation" I mean the overall circumstances/situation. If I'm walking around concealed, one would generally consider my weapon "out of general equation" for the general public purposes. It's goes without saying the for the concealer, it's always in the equation. That's the whole purpose for carrying.

Look, I'm not looking to start an argument here or quibble about semantics. I stated my understanding/opinion of the situation, which is the purpose of the forums.

My response was also my opinion, not of the situation but of your understanding/opinion, which is also the purpose of forums.

**EDIT**
Thanks

Mavs00 wrote:

joe817 wrote:

WildBill wrote:

I think you are confused.
I suggest you click the link and read the applicable laws http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... m/PE.9.htm


PC 9.04 says it all. Do we need to say more? End of discussion....QED...

Oh no.... I totally understand what the law says, and whoever did the discharge would certainly have to justify their actions in court (which they probably would lose). I'm just talking about the practical (real world) response to someone seeing a weapon being pulled.... is likely all the excuse they would need to start shooting. Bottom line for me...... DO not introduce the weapon into the equation unless there is no other option.

If it's a legal CHLer who is carrying we are talking about, there is already a weapon in the equation.

mikebass78 wrote:WOW...the Girl Scout comment, was more of a pushy car salesman reference, and to show that beggars, girl scouts, the guys on bikes that come to my subdivision on bikes ( mormons I think )...can be dismissed with a Simple NO, or I can't help you...

NO need to draw UNLESS you feel threatened...Brandishing/Flashing isn't part of it

Like i said, I still think he would have got cited for brandishing, had an officer seen the incident or anyone else( citizen, store owner or anyone else) made a complaint.

Here is something a "simple no" or a "I can't help you" got these people.
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/P ... 79281.html

The victim passed the suspect as he exited the 7-Eleven. The suspect asked the victim for some money and when the man didn’t give him any the suspect stabbed him in the back with a knife.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/ar ... 767293.php

Lt. Diedrich Hohn said the woman was walking with her 4-year-old child near the Interstate-95 overpass when she was approached by a black male, who asked her for money.
The woman replied that she did not have any money and kept walking. A second or two later, she felt a jabbing pain on the right side of her stomach, and hurried back to her apartment, seconds away from where she was assaulted.

How about this guy who gave money?
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/12cb41ab ... quote]GLEN BURNIE, Md. (AP) — Anne Arundel County Police say a panhandler stabbed a man in the head after the victim gave him some money.[/quote]
How about this? Not nowhere nearly as violent but surely not anything I've seen girl scouts do.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=72137

Javier730 wrote:Heres something that happened to me about 2 years ago. I stopped (with my son who was 4 at the time) at a Valero to fuel up and while walking in to pay, a guy stop in front of me to ask me for a few bucks for gas. I said "no man sorry" and walked around him. He then said "you dont have to be rude", I know I should of kept walking but I turned my head and said, "I wasnt being rude", and kept walking. He then started yelling using profanity and was saying he was going to beat me. I went inside and while standing in line I noticed he was sitting in his vehicle and there was a woman in the passenger and two other males in the backseat. I payed for my fuel and as I headed for the door I noticed he and his two buddies jumped out of the vehicle. I had no chl at the time and only had a kershaw leek with me. I could not risk getting into any confrontation especially with my son with me so I had to de-escalate the situation quickly. I walked towards my vehicle and they walked towards me. The main guy was raising his pants up and squaring off as if we were going to get in a street fight. I reached into my pocket and pulled out about $3 and held my hand out which he quickly grabbed. They then walked back to there truck and left. I felt like I was robbed. Thats what made me start looking into getting my chl.

mikebass78 wrote: In my entire adulthood, nor early manhood, have I ever felt the need to show someone asking for money my firearm, or felt intimidated by them....

for all these years, a simple, "sorry can help, or NO I don't have it" have worked just fine...

I wish I could say the same. Ive had several instances where these guys asking for money became aggressive. I didn't start out as a person who switch from yellow to orange when being approached by panhandlers. It was the previous negative encounters I had with them that made me always be on yellow like most CHLers and now orange when bring approached by them.

mikebass78 wrote:OP was out of line IMO...

Might as well do the same thing to girl scouts in front of every kroger, target or wherever, they seem more pushy than a beggar...

I've never had a girl scout cuss me out and try to fight me in front of my child for refusing to by cookies from them. Now looking forward to it though.

mikebass78 wrote:But a good question was, what happened if the guy didn't stop coming? Shoot first ask questions later?

Probably would have gotten to the low and ready position and yelled like a maniac for him to stop.

jmra wrote:
To the OP, whatever action you decide to take in a situation, do it decidedly and don't "what if" yourself to death (literally). Rely on your training and preparation to guide you in the right course of action. There simply isn't time for "what ifs" when someone is closing ground.
I will add that I try to scan gas stations as I'm pulling up to a pump (or parking lots or whatever) and before I get out of the vehicle. There have been a number of times I didn't like what I saw and moved on to the next station or parking spot.

I used to try that believe me. That usually ended up with me looking for a while only to have to settle on the next one I saw and being asked anyway. After a while, I was looking for fuel stations with only one panhandler. I live in a neighborhood that was fairly decent but there had been an increase of shady looking people moving close by. Same thing with the area at work.

Ruark wrote:I've had many panhandlers take a step towards me after I shook my head "no." They were just giving it a 2nd try, not being threatening or aggressive.

I used to give the same headshake and sometimes even apologized for not having any change for them. I no longer do that. I had more negative encounters doing that than by being firm and loud. They usually just got closer for their "2nd try" and it seems they took the fact that they made me obviously uncomfortable and my apology as a sign off weakness. They usually get closer and louder with their begging at that point and i think they know people will give them money just to get them away at that point. I've had some of these guys try and fight me for not paying them for their "2nd try".

No longer. I am loud and firm and that seems to end most encounters. It didn't help on the last one but open carry did.

Like I said, I want to make their approach as uncomfortable as it makes me. The reason I asked about the legality of the placement of hands on an open carried pistol is because eventually these guys will probably get used to seeing people with openly carried pistols and just having them displayed on your hip might not be enough to deter them.

http://m.mysanantonio.com/news/local/ar ... 503260.php

Central Substation told officers they have been "tasked with monitoring and clearing the homeless from the City Manager’s residence and surrounding areas."

“To suggest that I have requested any special treatment is flat wrong,” she said. “As city manager, I go out of my way to ensure there is none.

One lieutenant wrote, "Moving the homeless from point A to point B is only going to cause complaints at point B and the cycle continues."

This is why there are so much is some areas, they are probably all being moved from the places the city manager frequents.

The chief of police tried fining people who got caught giving panhandlers money but that was quickly changed.

Ruark wrote:I've had many panhandlers take a step towards me after I shook my head "no." They were just giving it a 2nd try, not being threatening or aggressive. I could be legally over the top if, in that situation, I exposed my weapon and yelled at him to "STOP!!!" So you would have to be careful about exactly what was going on - his manner, his expression, what he was saying, etc.

Keep follow-up in mind as well. Suppose he hadn't stopped? Suppose he'd kept coming and said "hey, man, I'm really broke..."? Since you had yelled at him to stop and were clearly implying that you would shoot if he didn't, would you have drawn and blown his head off? Suppose he'd said "forget you, man, go ahead and shoot me!" What would you have done next?

"CHL holder kills unarmed homeless man asking for spare change." A prosecutor could have a field day with that, not to mention the Moms. Anyway, be careful out there. You came out of this one OK, but you were walking a very fine line.

I feel like this could be an easy way to close the distance for someone who intends to rob you.

If someone approaches me to ask for money and I tell them they aren't getting any, they should get the point. If they don't, a loud " STOP!" or "GET BACK!" should get the point across. Sometimes that just isn't enough. Some of these guys urge to get high seems to be too strong and make them real desperate.

We have had this problem in San Antonio for a while. There are panhandlers at almost every convenience store on certain parts of town. I drive all over the city and its very common to see these guys at the same spot. They approach at intersections and drive thrus as well. I have had so many encounters with panhandlers who try and get aggressive.

I bet this was done by one of those asking for"gas money". I don't want those guys near me with their gas cans either.

Javier730 wrote:I used this at a Valero last night. There was two guys standing by the entrance asking for money. I parked by the pump and began using my debit card to fuel up. Both men started walking in my direction. Before they could even reach my truck I said to them, "Im not gonna give you any money." One of them walked back toward the store and the other kept approaching. I quickly went from concealed carry to open carry and said loudly, "STAY BACK!". The guys eyes opened up he spun around and sprinted back to his buddy. I then switched back to carrying concealed and continued fueling up all while keeping an eye on the two guys.

Thats the first time I have ever open carried. This also happened in San Antonio. We have always had a problem here with beggars but now they seen to be approaching in twos.

This could be viewed as illegal according to the Texas Penal Code (thanks for pointing that out Keith B, it may have saved me from hiring an attorney one day).

Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:
.......
(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;
......

Ive heard of people reaching for or even unconcealing the pistol and grabbing it (before open carry had passed and on this forum) when being approached by a panhandler or after a panhandler doesn't get the point that they are getting a little to close for comfort. I figured with open carry legal now, I could "switch" from concealed to open when ever I chose. But since this disorderly conduct section is in there about displaying a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm, I have decided I will switch to open carry in my truck when getting ready to fuel up.

I never even thought about open carrying nor will I go about my day open carrying. Like I mentioned in another thread, tiger1279s post made me consider trying it at the gas pump.

tiger1279 wrote:I only conceal carry, but the last time I was approached while pumping gas I just pulled back my shirt revealing my weapon. The guy backed off. I like being able to show the weapon at times and not have to worry about breaking the law.

I tried it and it worked, but since it could be considered illegal, I will not do it again.

My question is, what could be considered displaying a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm while open carrying. Could gripping an openly carried pistol, like LEOs sometimes do when approaching vehicles during traffic stops, be considered disorderly conduct? How about resting a hand on the pistol, like LEOs do sometimes when they are having a conversation? How about with a situation like mine where a panhandler is approaching, ignoring the fact he was told not to get any closer?

I am by no means trying to make people think I'm a LEO or intimidate the public. I am not gonna go around gripping my pistol while open carrying. I don't even plan on open carrying other than at the pump. All I want to do is keep panhandlers away and make any one of them approaching me as uncomfortable as they make me, all while complying with the law.

Thanks.