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aggiedave05 wrote:So, this seems to be the definitive thread on firearms travelling.

I have travelled on 2 occasions with only handguns, but this trip I would like to travel with my shotgun (love to shoot with brother). So this brings up a question re: airline regs v. tsa "law".

AA allows you to fly with 3 longguns or 5 handguns per case. Nothing is written re: combinations. For example, can I travel with 2 longguns and 2 handguns in same case? I sent an e-mail to AA and called the first time and they basically deferred to TSA which has no such rule as far as I can see RE: number of firearms only the method in which it is transported and declared. Because of any lack of clarity in this I have not attempted this travel yet and my nightmare is arriving at check-in and being informed that I may not travel with shotgun.

Surely I am not the only one who has faced this? Thoughts? Comments?

TSA doesn't much care how many and what combination, it's the airlines you have to worry about there. When I was with TSA I saw many combinations go through, Dove hunters taking along a couple of plinking guns (pistol and rifle) and compettition shooters with several different guns along.

Mithras61 wrote:

HankB wrote:

Mithras61 wrote: I don't know if O'Hare falls under the handgun ban or not, but I'm pretty sure it isn't inside the city limits (it appears to be in a suburb, actually). . .

Actually, I believe when O'Hare was built, they connected it to the city of Chicago via a fairly narrow strip of land, so it actually is a part of the city.

Google Maps lists it as Des Plaines (search term=ORD).

It IS city of Chicago!

Jim101 wrote:Got back from Fla. yesterday...At DFW I signed the form and put it in the Car Safe, TSA X-Rayed the luggage then asked me for the key to the box, looked at the contents and then we were on our way. When returning from Orland, I filled out the form, put it in the box, locked it, they X-Rayed it and that was it, no open and look, everyone was very nice. My only question is; Why do you have to put the form in the box with the gun? Opening the suitecase at the ticket counter seems to disrupt everyone, including people that are wondering what is going on, why can't you just show TSA the form, pocket it, they X-ray it and that's all? Orlando did question the ammo in the same box as the gun (in an ammo wallet) but, let it go.........

Jim

The form used to get tied to the outside of the bag, this was years ago before TSA came into being, until they discovered that guns were going missing after they left the passengers' hands. Openly advertising that there is a gun in the bag would make ME uncomfortable.

Having the tag in the box with the gun accounts for it in the event that the bag and the passenger get separated, as sometimes happens.

Depending on a whole bunch of variables the gun in the box might set an alarm off on the machine, at which point TSA is OBLIGATED to investigate, which generally includes opening the box to make sure that nothing is concealed by the gun's mass.

stevie_d_64 wrote: The whole uniform of "Bates" footwear, Docker pants, plain buttondown shirt and a sportcoat with the traditional suede leather elbow reinforcements was pretty much a dead giveaway... I think he was new on the job...He got this look from a guy 3 rows up from us, almost dressed the same, he looked like your exceptional Marine Corp DI...Opps...Muh bad...

See, it pays to be aware of your surroundings...

Yeah, but they are relaxing the dress codes for FAMs. We see them from time to time, and we are not supposed to notice, but sometimes one just can't help. Last one I did notice looked like a hippie on a road trip.

Jim101 wrote:Well, as I sit here in Cocoa Beach watching the Tropical Storm I have my Kel-tec with me.........I I put the gun,clip and ammo wallet in the car safe in my luggage, with no problems at DFW, now for the trip back........

Jimh

You got a handgun that takes clips?

Chris wrote:...
out of the 5 or so TSA people searcing bags at each airport, there was at least one who was just appalled by the thought of someone having a firearm in their luggage, and that was usually the person collecting the bags, not searching them. the other screeners, or the ones who actually did the baggage inspections, showed very little concern.

Unfortunatley we are a cross section of society. The other day I bought an issue of "Combat Handguns" while on my break and took it back to the checkpoint with me. The screener I was working with saw it lying face up and turned it over, and there was a gun on the back cover too, so she opened it and flipped pages until she found one that had no guns on it and folded the mag to lie with that page showing. I almost laughed my butt off, she was in a total panic just at the PICTURES of handguns. BTW, if you ever get the chance, try to find a page in CH that doesn' have a picture of a gun on it - ROFL!

Fortunately, the rabidly anti-gun types are comparatively few and not usually in a position to have much of an effect, but that's not to say that they don't have some. I am not a big "gun talker" IOW I don't spend all of my time talking about guns, but we have a couple of people who are (and there are one or two that seem to me to be all talk and no action) but one of our anti-rights types decided that another screener had talked too much about guns and filed a complaint about him.

At least at my airport the laws and rules are reflected in the policies, and I believe the same holds true for DFW, but I can't speak for the other airports. I will stick to my recommendation that you follow the posted rules and take copies, and insist on escalation of issues that pose a problem between you and a screener to a higher level for resolution.

Chris wrote: however, they didn't even open the cases that the guns were in. every other airport had to inspect the actual guns. the guns were in a locked suitcase, in locked plastic containers, with gun locks through the barrels.

If there were any "gun savvy" screeners on duty that saw that, they probably had a good laugh at your expense later, that was a little over the top.

TSA's rules, which I can quote but not post, do state that the only time firearms are to be inspected is under v ery strictly defined circumstances, including that the xray machine alarmed. Since guns tend to be heavy lumps of metal, it's not a surprise to see the machine alarm on them, as a matter of fact, it always surprises me more when the machine doesn't alarm.

Chris wrote:overall, i don't see any correlation of TSA employees giving me crap about it, moreso than i think some employees of TSA happen to personally be very anti-gun and don't mind incorporating that into their work. throughout this whole ordeal, i didn't present my CHL to a single person.

OTOH, you could have run into one of us "gunnies" and missed your flight for the chatting, seen that happen.

Jim101 wrote:To all,

I'm getting feedback from other boards that the ammo has to be in the orginial ammo box and full......is that true?? AND has to be in the same lock box as the gun? So my ammo wallet with (8) rounds either in the lock box or just in my suticase is no good??

Thanks,

Jim

Not at my airport, we follow the law to the letter, see above reference to 49CFR175(A)(5), and original packaging is not mentioned, nor is full.

It also does not have to be in the same lock box, and can be just in the suitcase, but it can also be in the locked box without reference to the type of gun.

The airlines can add rules of their own, above and beyond the law, but TSA does not enforce those rules, or isn't supposed to. If an airline requires original packaging, and full, and specific placement of the box, well, that's the reason I included the caveat at the start of this thread. LOOK IT UP!!!! Get on the airline's web site, or get them on the phone and have them provide a hard copy of their rules, and carry that along when you travel.

I still can't imagine why you would only take eight rounds, when I take my .45s I have to take enough to fill three mags and one in the pipe, or at least 28 rounds, and if I take my XD9, I start with 52.

I wouldn't carve holes in the padding, the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) where it is pretty much carved in stone, even if it does suffer from interpretation by the unknowing (TSA types among them,) states that ammunition needs to be an a wood, fiber, or metal...WAIT!!! let me look it up and post it again...or didn't I already post it?

From 49CFR175(A)(5)

(5) Small-arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in his baggage (excluding carry-on baggage) if securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.

Anyway, the gun case's foam liner is not designed to carry ammunition, even it's carved up, so an overenthusiastic TSA screener is likely to see to it that you "voluntarily surrender" the ammo at a minimum. The case is not "designed", in the strictest sense of the term, to carry ammo. The safest thing would be, if you must carry less than a full box (and even partial boxes fit in the rule above) to get a target block like someone mentioned earlier, something that is obviously designed to hold ammo and fits under the "other packagings" portion (plastic.)

We had quite a discussion about this when a duck hunter came through with a bandolier in his bag, with about 30 rounds of shotgun shells in it. We came to the conclusion that the bandolier was fiber and designed to carry ammo, and was pretty secure in the way ir was rolled and wrapped. Whether this conclusion would have been reached by TSA people with less of a sense of humor (or ridiculous or sublime) is subject to conjecture.

There is nothing in the CFR that says primers must be protected, it says the ammo must be securely packed in an ammo container. This has also led to much debate about loaded magazines (one screener opined that a loaded magazine was equivalent to a loaded gun, even if the mag was well separated from the gun, not all of us are knowledgeable or even common sensical) and the conclusion was that although magazines are designed to carry ammo, to do so securely they must either be in a magazine holder or in a gun, otherwise rounds can and do pop out (the voice of experience here if nothin else, loose mags in pockets can lose rounds.) The consensus was that if a magazine with rounds came through our area, and it was in a mag holder that fastened closed ie a LEO type, then it would be acceptable, but not in open top puoches, such as what I carry. You can't win them all.

Educating people to the difference between magazines and clips has also been fun, but I did win a concession that a bandolier of Garand clips (loaded) would have to be considered: fiber and metal; secure; and a packaging designed to carry small amounts of ammo (at eight rounds per CLIP.)

And I must reiterate, this applies only to conditions that existed at the time and place of the discussion and may not apply when you have your butt in a wringer because you decided to push the edge of the envelope.

There is a lot of interesting reading in the CFR, and Chas can tell you that a lot of it is about as clear as mud, but just about every scenario concerning checking firearms and ammo in baggage is covered, and it only take a few words.

Me, the next time I fly with a gun, my ammo is going in a .223 ammo box, the sturdy military model, in boxes of its own. The last time I flew some screener got in my bag and emptied out my ammo boxes, so all I had was empty boxes when I got where I was going. I do have to admit that I was a screener myself at the time and that they did send my ammo, in another box. They also wrapped my bag in about 50 yards of Saran wrap, but I knew about that trick and had a sharp knife easily accessible in a side pocket so I was able to cut it free. You should have seen my sirprise when I got to my rental car and started to strap up, only to find my ammo boxes empty.

For further reference, 49CFR1544.203f is included here.

(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;

(iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and

(iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the flightcrew compartment,.

(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.

(g) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm. Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing carriage of ammunition on aircraft.


And I am still working on my "comprehensive" "Jim's handy guide to flying with your gun in checked baggage to avoid unnecessary delays and other discomfort including chats with the Transportation Security Administration and Law Enforcement Officers."

I hope that title isn't too unwieldy, I expect to be paid by the letter.

bentcursor wrote:I then asked him if I could lock the outer luggage and he said something like "Why bother, they can open the zipper with a pencil." In any case, I locked my bag and then worrried for the next four hours whether I'd ever see my gun again.

Well, everything worked out and gun and daddy are back together. My recommendation - leave plenty of time, get a sturdy hard-shell piece of luggage and lock everything after the inspection.

Yup, but I prefer not to mess up my pencils or pens - OOOOPSSSS, did I say that out loud?

bentcursor wrote:My recommendation - leave plenty of time, get a sturdy hard-shell piece of luggage and lock everything after the inspection.

Yup!!!!!

anygunanywhere wrote:First, you must take your luggage to the ticket counter. You can not use the curbside service when transporting firearms. Ever.

Except at some airports like Dallas Love Field.

anygunanywhere wrote:Outside the locked hard case inside the luggage. TSA must be able to see the tag without opening the locked hard case when inside luggage. The tag goes inside hard rifle cases. TSA has corrected the tag issue several times. Airlines keep wanting it inside the locked hard case. TSA keeps wanting it outside the hard case.

Boy, I am sorry I missed this one for so long. TSA does not have any say about where the tag goes, the only reason it goes inside rifle cases is that they are usually not inside something else (I have seen a guy with two long gun cases inside a golf case) and the tag is a real dead giveaway as to what is inside. Although us gunnies might expect a gun to be inside that case that usually is used for long guns, I have seen multitudes of other things packed in them.

BTW, most airlines do not charge for overweight on golf bag cases, so guess what I am buying if I start travelling again. The guy with the two gun cases in his, knew that he would be checking too many bags if he didn't combine some, and also knew that the airline didn't charge for overweight, so he got this huge plastic monstrosity and put the two gun cases, some ammo, and about a week's worth of supplies and clothes in it too.

I guess this is as good a place to put "THE REST OF THE STORY" as Paul Harvey would put it.

This guy came into the airport and had his gun, secured with a cable lock, in his soft sided bag.

The ticket agent "didn't notice" that the gun wasn't in a locked hard sided container and let it go on to screening.

The screener running the x-ray, very sharp eyed and vigilant, noticed the cable lock, but didn't see a box around the gun and notified the proper chain of command.

Opening the bag verified that the gun was indeed not in a box, it was "loose" (actually in a gun rug) with a cable lock through the mag well and ejection port.

The passenger was called back from where he was about to board the plane, along with an airline representative to show what had been done wrong, and the passenger was told, by the airline, that he would either have to leave the gun behind (in his car, with a friend, sell it to someone in the airport (not really that latter)) or get a suitable box.

The airline rep agreed to schedule our luckless hero for a later flight while he took a taxi to a store nearby to buy a suitable box.

The taxi took the poor guy to several big box department stores (Target, etc.) nearby, only to find, at each, that they didn't have much in the way of suitable boxes.

They finally found one, at a cost of $35.00 and the taxi cost $45.00 plus a tip.

The taxi driver DID NOT deserve the tip, because the DFW Gun Range http://www.dfwgun.com/ was not far away and would have accomodated any box needed for almost any gun, up to Ma Deuce (which we have seen one of BTW, well a semi-auto version anyway - now there was a heavy bag.)

stevie_d_64 wrote:

jimlongley wrote:Another good point. Recently we had a guy come through with a gun in his suitcase, with a cable lock through the mag well and slide, they made him go buy a box with a lock and he missed his flight.

BTW, since I volunteered you to write up some comments on your experiences, the least I can do is help you form it all up and type some of it in so it can be posted...I'll be glad to get with you and help out if you like...Just let me know...

With my wacky work schedule it's going to take me a few days to put things together in a sensible manner, but I'm happy to do it.

Another good point. Recently we had a guy come through with a gun in his suitcase, with a cable lock through the mag well and slide, they made him go buy a box with a lock and he missed his flight.

There's a little more to that story that's kind of funny and I'll post it some other time, but the lesson learned is that the gun must be in a hard sided locked case (which could be a suitcase) and just having a lock through it, which I would have said was good enough, is not within that definition.

You don't need to go to the extent of using zip ties, although it's not really a bad idea, but I would lock the action open or swing the cylinder out.

Jim101 wrote:OK, does the ammo have to be in a locked box?

Jim

Good question:

No, but it's not too bad of an idea. And it can be in the same box as the gun.

Every year at the start of Dove Season, and again at the start of Duck and Goose season we see LOTS of ammo come through in the most disreputable shape. I swear we had one guy come through who had been carrying the same 20 gauge shells for what seemed to be many seasons, loose in his bag, with spilled junk food, mud, crud, blood, and unidentifiable stuff. Just about all of his ammo was in a condition where I wouldn't load it in my gun, even if it was shootable, it was all just too dirty.

Chatting with the guy, while gathering up and "allowing" him to "voluntarily surrender" that which was not in boxes or wouldn't fit in the boxes that he had, I found out that he had never hunted where he was going this particular time, he had always driven to where he hunted and he just threw this bag in the back of the pickup on the way to the hunt.

We also had a guy come through with Tupperware containers full of ammo, but the ammo was loose in each.

And we had had ziploc bags of ammo come through.

It is against regs to transport ammo in baggage if it is not in a suitable ammo container. We have had many long debates (along with multiple lessons about the difference between clips and magazines) about just what constitutes "suitable." The consensus is that ammo should be carried in containers that prevent the ammo from drifting around loose, the point being to keep the primers from making contact with something that could cause them to go off. Now before anyone points out to me the unlikelyhood that that might occur, it's merely unlikely, not impossible, and I also know that the cartridge must be confined in a chamber for the projectile to develop significan velocity, but it can start a fire.

I have seen a plain cardboard box stuffed with ammo neatly stacked be declared good. I have also seen a bandolier of shotgun shells wrapped tightly and stuffed in a box be okayed. I still wouldn't recommend either.

Also, some airlines enforce weight limits for the amount of ammo you are allowed to check, and this varies from one to the next.

TSA used to enforce a weight limit on ammo until someone wrote to the higher-ups that there was no such Federal regulation. This someone had been arguing with local people for a while and couldn't make any progress so he decided to jump the chain of command and it apparantly worked.

SO, we come back to the same old recommendation:

Check before you go, check when you get there, and stick with your guns if you can. Document, document, document, all of the regulations and rules about checking firearms and ammunition are readily available on the 'net. so print copies up before you leave and try to stay right in the center of anything that is even slightly subject to interpretation.

I am working on a "comprehensive" list of recommendations that we could make a sticky, but I have to keep reiterating that these are my own observatioons, interpretations, and personal advice and they may not apply at any particular airport. A case in point is the NY metropolitan airports where the ticket agents routinely refer anyone checking a firearm to the NYC or NY Transit Police, who will enfore the law the way they see fit whether or not there is a Federal pre-emption.

Something on the order of Caveat Emptor, like maybe Caveat reader would apply.

Jim101 wrote:Would it do any good to show them your CHL? Just a thought..

Jim

Nope.