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ScottDLS wrote:And the charges were almost immediately dropped because they were unsupported by the law. That was the point of my "murder" hyperbole.

The operative term being "almost immediately" while all of your scenarios indicate that you expect no charges at all, and all I am saying is that you can expect to take an uncomfortable ride. Your hyperbole still fails.

ScottDLS wrote:PISD is a government entity. They have taxing authority, they are constituted under the laws of the State, and the Trustees are elected. The DPS doesn't support prosecutions unless they were the arresting agency.

While noting that you did not answer the question, I suggest you take your points about PISD and DPS up with them, I am merely restating what they told me.

ScottDLS wrote:I'm sure the other improperly posted government entities intend to prosecute, and in the unlikely event you're discovered, will undoubtedly fail (in their prosecution). DPS is irrelevant unless you somehow got arrested by a trooper.

Or if you're arrested by an agency that sees fit to follow DPS guidelines, but that's irrelevant, even if they fail in their prosecution, you have still been arrested and charged and spent some time in custody and are probably out money for an attorney and all sorts of other inconveniences, none of which would happen if they were to follow the law as written.

ScottDLS wrote:My legal carry causes me very little concern, even after reading Handog's unfortunate experience, because my method of carry makes it highly unlikely to be exposed. That's why I don't spend a lot of time worried about carrying on 30.06 posted government property. I'm very unlikely to be caught and even if I am, it's not illegal. When PISD officials are claiming they are not a government entity, their other (incorrect) interpretations of the law become very suspect.

But unlikely is not impossible, and "not illegal" is probably going to wind up in front of a judge or DA because the LEO is just doing his job the way he sees it or has been told to and suspect interpretations will get you nowhere with him. PISD says they are an "independant" school district, not a government entity, and I don't agree, so you can argue that point with them, arguing with me about their interpretation accomplishes not one little jot or tittle for you, I am merely stating what they told me. Same for DPS.

My original point, when answering HankB was that I had seen an "improper" 30.06 sign and I had it on their authority that they intended to arrest and prosecute despite laws to the contrary. And that a call to DPS (and I am not the only one to have the same conversation with DPS) about "improper signage" indicated that they intend to prosecute if a poster makes what they consider to be a reasonable effort to come close to the proper signage. Two separate incidents that you insist on concatenating while strutting around telling everyone that you won't be arrested because you are too well concealed and that you know the law. Fine, you know the law, so you go be the test case, the only time I have ever been in a jail cell was to take the cuffs off my prisoner and the only time I have ever been involved in an arrest I was an arrester, not an arrestee, and I intend to keep it that way even if I have to err on the side of caution.

I failed to bring up Love Field's 30.05 signs which are really off in another galaxy as far as leegality goes, but Love Field, a government entity, and most of the LEOs there, in the three years I worked there for TSA, when we had many conversations about this sort of thing, expect to follow their command's orders and arrest any individual caught carrying on the unsecured side, under authority of 30.06. Once again, just telling you what they said, and if you want to argue about it, call them, it's been covered often enough in other threads here, including pictures.

Fin

ScottDLS wrote:Look I'm not trying to antagonize you. I think this is a worthy public discussion for this board. At least you have made the effort to contact officials, hear what they have to say, present our side of the story, and try to correct them.

Now I'm going to break down my point of view.

The charge will be trespass by a CHL.

The 30.06 charge is completely unsupported by the law. They might as well say the charge is murder. The 30.06 section is not applicable. See 30.06 law cite below.

I guess the perfect storm of cop with an attitude, liberal DA, and anti-gun judge could support the murder charge for carrying in the school parking lot. But then we're just being nihilists and the law doesn't mean anything, everything is random, and chaos rules. That's not a facts based argument.

Your use of the murder argument seems antagonistic to me, but I will respond as if you seriously want to discuss, instead of being critical without knowing the whole story as in your posts until now. It would not require anything like a perfect storm to support the 30.06 charge, at least to uncomfortable levels for the unfortunate victim of the false arrest and imprisonment. Although you have quoted the law and your stand that it will be followed perfectly by law enforcement is admirable, it is also somewhat naive to expect them to follow your understanding, especially in light of the "cuffed and stuffed" thread where there was no CHL violation, but the victim was arrested anyway.

ScottDLS wrote:I'm only in a position to make a "judgment" on what you have shared so far of your conversations. But unless you've got some amazing legal revelation that PISD lawyers or DPS shared, I haven't yet heard logic to convince me otherwise.

So why pass judgment then? Why not ask for further information politely instead if just saying that it can't happen because you said so? I do have some more information, but not much. When the signs went up at PISD I noticed immediately because my wife is employed there. I went over to a nearby school and found several things, that the letters were not proper size, the wording was improper, and the signs were only visible in one direction if you happened to be entering the public parking lot. I called PISD administration and was informed that they are NOT a government entity, therefore the posting is valid, and that they have checked with DPS and have been told that the language is correct and the size is immaterial. I then called DPS and was informed by the lady lawyer that many of us have gotten the same answer from, that they consider a 30.06 even with improper language and wrong size letters, to be an effort at posting and they will enforce the idea, rather than the fact. According to them, PISD is free to have you arrested and they will support the prosecution.

ScottDLS wrote:I don't live in PISD territory, but stop asking me if I want to be the test case. I live in the Lewisville ISD in Texas. I am the test case.

And yet you claim not to be being antagonistic while suggesting that I do so father down. Sorry, the invitation still holds, you are welcome to come over to PISD and be a test case any time you want to, LISD is not posted, so you are right not to worry, but PISD is and I can just envision how much attention the cops will pay to your protestations that the law doesn't apply. But you are definitively NOT the test case you claim to be, you have never been arrested, that you have told us, or apparently even questioned about being on LISD property with your concealed handgun, the fact that there is no case, means there is no test.

ScottDLS wrote:I carry at the non-secure area of the DFW airport and in the parking lot.

And this is germain how?

ScottDLS wrote:I carry in movie theaters where I can't see any signs because they are too small to read.

So?

ScottDLS wrote:I open carry in my house and on the firing line at the DFW Gun Range in Dallas.

Even less meaningful.

ScottDLS wrote:Sometimes I drive 43mph in a 45mph zone. I don't worry about being arrested for any of this, because it's not against the law. But if I am arrested, I'll spend a few bucks to prove myself right.

So you are prepared to be a test case? I thought you didn't want to be.

ScottDLS wrote:You seem to be looking for someone in authority or a law to tell you what IS OK. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of criminal law. That which is not prohibited is allowed. You, the DPS, the PISD lawyers, haven't explained how any of these actions are prohibited. I'm standing by.

Covered above. Not looking for someone to tell me it's OK, just pointing out, as a comment, that PISD is posted with invalid 30.06 signage and they intend to prosecute, and DPS supports them.

ScottDLS wrote:Do you carry anywhere with your CHL? If so aren't you worried that an anti-gun DA or cop will have you "cuffed and stuffed" for 46.02 UCW. I mean it's not applicable per 46.15 since you have your CHL, but aren't you worried about a cop who isn't familiar with CHL.

Quite frankly, after the "cuffed and stuffed" thread, I will admit to some trepidation, but your argumentativeness doesn't encourage me to answer beyond that.

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN, (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter
411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent;
...

(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property
on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

[/quote]

ScottDLS wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

HankB wrote:So far, I haven't SEEN a "close to" PC30.06 sign - they've either been fully compliant (as far as I could tell) or obviously NON-compliant, like typewritten on a half-sheet of notebook paper.

If I saw a sign that was correct except for something like a missing comma or letters that are 0.005" too short, I'd avoid entering.

Plano Independent School District has every school parking lot posted with "close" signs. Contact with PISD indicates that they do not intend to replace them with compliant signs and anyone caught beyond the signs will be prosecuted, changes in the law making government property "unpostable" and improper signage notwithstanding. According to those that I have spoken to, the school district's attorneys feel that they are properly posted. The on campus LEOs also say they WILL arrest under the authority of the signs.

So what do these legal eagles from PISD say will be the charge? And the on campus LEO's...what will be their explanation to the Collin County prosecutor and judge for arresting you?

My $0.02, they're bluffing. They want to scare people into not carrying when they know darn well they can't do anything about it...because it's not illegal.

The charge will be trespass by a CHL.

Since you were not a party to the conversations, I doubt you are really in a position to make such a judgment. It was in the same time frame that I called DPS about the out of compliance signs and was informed that they considered close to compliance to be good enough, and they would be the ones to determine close enough. But you are welcome to come call their bluff any time you want to be the test case.

HankB wrote:So far, I haven't SEEN a "close to" PC30.06 sign - they've either been fully compliant (as far as I could tell) or obviously NON-compliant, like typewritten on a half-sheet of notebook paper.

If I saw a sign that was correct except for something like a missing comma or letters that are 0.005" too short, I'd avoid entering.

Plano Independent School District has every school parking lot posted with "close" signs. Contact with PISD indicates that they do not intend to replace them with compliant signs and anyone caught beyond the signs will be prosecuted, changes in the law making government property "unpostable" and improper signage notwithstanding. According to those that I have spoken to, the school district's attorneys feel that they are properly posted. The on campus LEOs also say they WILL arrest under the authority of the signs.

All covered in a different thread - if it looks enough like a 30.06 I figure they don't want my business, card them, and leave.