Search found 6 matches

by JALLEN
Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:49 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Improper signs and results
Replies: 91
Views: 13004

Re: Improper signs and results

mloamiller wrote:
pushpullpete wrote: however, you broke the 'spirit' of the law when you saw & disregarded the 'illegal' sign and that kind of action can shine an unfavorable light on the whole 'responsible gun owner' thing that most of us are trying to put forward.
We'll have to disagree on that. The law is very clear on what a business owner is required to do. If they haven't put enough effort into finding out what that requirement is and then implementing it correctly, that's on them.

I am being responsible in that I have put in the effort to know what the law states.
Actually, maybe it isn't clear what is required. We who are the most concerned don't seem to be all that clear about it.

We all believed a valid 30.06 sign was the predicate for a violation, but now, with the changes, at least for a no weapons policy, you need have no sign at all.

If you enter OC, you can be told to leave, or handed a card, and you must. If you are "made" somehow, they know you have a pistol even though you believe it is concealed, or even if they don't know, they can hand you a card with the wording, or tell you, you have effective notice. I wonder if it could be printed in appropriate type and color on a menu to suffice.
by JALLEN
Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:39 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Improper signs and results
Replies: 91
Views: 13004

Re: Improper signs and results

TexasRifleman wrote: If you want to lobby that 30.06/07 be changed to allow any random no gun sign be valid then go ahead, but the law is VERY clear on the requirements today so if a store wants to prohibit carrying, they can follow the SAME law I'm required to follow.
The sign is only one means of providing effective notice.

The others two are telling you and giving a card with the information.

What about printing it on the menu of a restaurant, in prominent type and size?

It is not the sign but the notice that is important.
by JALLEN
Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:35 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Improper signs and results
Replies: 91
Views: 13004

Re: Improper signs and results

TVGuy wrote:
JALLEN wrote:Here is a scenario:

You and a small group of friends meet at a restaurant for dinner. On the way in, you notice a clearly invalid 30.06 sign near the door. Your pistol is concealed, so no worries.

During dinner, you are asked to pass the catsup and, half standing, reach across the large table to hand it to another. A few minutes later, the hostess stops by and tells you that your pistol was noticed while you were stretched out across the table, that weapons are not allowed in the restaurant, and you must either take it to your car, and would then be welcome to return, or leave if not.

1. Do you take the pistol out to the car and return, weaponless? Or

2. Point out that the sign out front is non compliant, therefore meaningless, and return to your chicken fried steak? Or

3. Leave promptly and do not return, leaving the bill unpaid? The others finish their meal and pay their portion. Or

4. The entire party leaves right then, without paying?
#1 then ask to speak with the GM. Have a polite and rational conversation that will determine if I will return.
And that discussion would be what? The policy is theoretically not negotiable.
by JALLEN
Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:24 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Improper signs and results
Replies: 91
Views: 13004

Re: Improper signs and results

Here is a scenario:

You and a small group of friends meet at a restaurant for dinner. On the way in, you notice a clearly invalid 30.06 sign near the door. Your pistol is concealed, so no worries.

During dinner, you are asked to pass the catsup and, half standing, reach across the large table to hand it to another. A few minutes later, the hostess stops by and tells you that your pistol was noticed while you were stretched out across the table, that weapons are not allowed in the restaurant, and you must either take it to your car, and would then be welcome to return, or leave if not.

1. Do you take the pistol out to the car and return, weaponless? Or

2. Point out that the sign out front is non compliant, therefore meaningless, and return to your chicken fried steak? Or

3. Leave promptly and do not return, leaving the bill unpaid? The others finish their meal and pay their portion. Or

4. The entire party leaves right then, without paying?
by JALLEN
Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:22 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Improper signs and results
Replies: 91
Views: 13004

Re: Improper signs and results

TexasRifleman wrote:
JALLEN wrote:
TexasRifleman wrote:
Lena wrote:Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given
If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?
Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.
But the sign has specific requirements. Certainly you can assume they don't want you there, but a sign that does not meet the legal requirements isn't notification.

For OC sure, you're likely to get verbal but for CC? It's NOT illegal to ignore an improper 30.06 sign. You can debate the morality all you want, but it's legal to just walk right by.
TexasRifleman wrote:
JALLEN wrote:
TexasRifleman wrote:
Lena wrote:Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given
If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?
Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.
But the sign has specific requirements. Certainly you can assume they don't want you there, but a sign that does not meet the legal requirements isn't notification.

For OC sure, you're likely to get verbal but for CC? It's NOT illegal to ignore an improper 30.06 sign. You can debate the morality all you want, but it's legal to just walk right by.
Sorry, I am a retired lawyer, not a preacher. I never debate morality. Legal is hard enough.

It is true you can walk right by what you perceive to be an invalid sign, and CC, you might not receive "effective notice." If you are discovered, you may receive "effective notice" in another way, or you may discover that the sign isn't as invalid as you thought. No guts, no glory, as the old saying goes! It all depends.
by JALLEN
Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:05 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Improper signs and results
Replies: 91
Views: 13004

Re: Improper signs and results

TexasRifleman wrote:
Lena wrote:Why cause an issue?
Any sign posted is conveying the intent
The more it is pushed the worse it may become
Win the battle lose the war so to say

I saw one last night at Scotty p's in Firewheel Mall area, a statement was made, notice was given
If gun carriers have to follow all the relevant laws why shouldn't private businesses?
Actually, they are.

You cannot carry in a place that objects. There are 3 ways of giving notice of an objection, verbal, a card with the proper wording or a sign.

A sign is likely most convenient, but if you don't see it, you can be told or handed a card. Some may be nervous about "confronting" an armed customer.

With CC, likely no one is the wiser, but now with OC, it is more apparent.

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